Ep 74 with Phillippa Diedrichs

Ailey Jolie: 00:06

Each episode is intended to support you in reconnecting to your very own body. This podcast will be available for free wherever you get your podcast, making it easy for you to stay connected to in this body, the podcast with me alienshully. Welcome back to another episode of How to Be in This Body. My guest today is Professor Philippe Diedrix, a researcher psychologist at the Center for Appearance Research at the University of West England in Bristol, the largest research group in the world devoted to the role of appearance and body image in our lives. She has spent more than 20 years studying how we come to feel the way we do about our bodies, publishing over a hundred peer-reviewed studies and advising organizations from UNICF and the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts to Nike, Meta, and the British government too. She's the founder of Everybody Consulting, the author of The Body Confidence Book for Teenagers, and one of the scientific minds behind the Dove Self-Esteem Project, which has brought evidence-based body confidence education to well over 100 million young people around the world. In our conversation today, we explore the research, her contributions, and how evidence-based research can travel from a lab into a classroom. We also explore her experience of burnout and being in her body. I really want to have this conversation because today's guests hold something so rare: a rigorous research background and also limbed tenderness. There is so much research on embodiment and body image and interceptive awareness and the impacts of the society around us. However, a lot of times that research never makes it into the public sphere, which is one of the reasons I really wanted to have this conversation because our guest today has made it her mission to share evidence-based research with the public so that they can have better relationships with their one and only body. This is a conversation that is about changing systems, but underneath it all, it's also a conversation about listening to a body that's been asking quietly and also loudly to be heard. I really hope that you enjoy today's episode of How to Be in This Body with Me, Aile Jolie. As you've been engaging with these corporations or companies for about 15 years, we can often be so quick to criticize or pass judgment or find fault or flaw. And the things that they have done oftentimes don't get celebrated or they just aren't very newsworthy. We don't know when there's been maybe potentially a new ban put in meta or a new filter for a hashtag to be removed. So I would just love to spend some time with you. If you have any maybe moments over the past 15 years of working with a company or corporation where you're like, you know what, we actually did some real good here and it's not really known about, or the statistics haven't been celebrated in a way.

Phillippa Diedrichs: 03:37

When I started thinking about um how do we start to change those broader systems, and for me, it was quite obvious that we needed to have conversations with those industries. Um and I, through various circumstances through the research center that I work with, we had the opportunity to um well, they actually contacted us, which was Dove, the big Unilever um personal care brand that had been doing work in this space with the campaign for real beauty since 2004. Uh, at this stage, it was about 2012, and they got in touch with us to see what, you know, we thought about the Dove Self-Esteem Project, which is their community impact program of delivering body image education to young people around the world. And um, you know, I was a little bit skeptical myself as well. I think there is good reason to be skeptical and to have a level of cynicism when it comes to working with different industries. And if you come from a public health background, you only need to look at the tobacco industry, for example, um, and some quite shady things that happened in terms of lobbying and policies, you know, in the 60s and the 70s, and you know, even probably present day now. Um, but it was really interesting for me because over many years I got to kind of grips with, you know, we have these big forces and we often think about them as big systems and almost faceless companies, but there are people behind those companies. Um and of course, there are bad actors in in, you know, in every setting. But I've been quite fortunate that the vast majority of people when I've been working with industry have not been. They've actually been people who are really creative, really intelligent and inspired, and ideally they want to have a positive impact on the world, which kind of then got me hearing about this kind of world and business, which was not my area at all, being a psychologist and an academic, but this idea of doing business by doing good. And so the starting point is we work on the assumption that we live in a capitalist society, first of all. So if we put that to the side for a bit, because that is an important discussion, but at the moment, where we're currently living is in a capitalist society, um, and business has have a huge um role. And they're also driven by money, um, right? They have a responsibility to their shareholders or um to whoever it is to make profit and money. But what happens if we could get them to make money while doing good at the same time, or at least not causing harm? And also what happens if if we can repurpose some of that profit to put it into more positive initiatives? And that's kind of where I've landed at the moment in my thinking. And also this idea that it's really important that we have some people who are agitating and like activists and who are agitating and calling things out. That's really important to create that pressure and momentum to see systems and cultural change. Um, and certainly that's what I do in many spaces about many issues. And then I also think it's important that we have some people who call people in or organizations in, or who get a seat at the table to have those discussions and so are trying to influence from the inside as well. And that requires building trusting relationships. And so that's kind of the role that I have been taken on and been doing for the past 15 years or so, working with these organizations and really building not only the case for why this is important for society and well-being and women and girls and genderqueer people, but also what's the business case for this? Because at the end of the day, these are people who have to meet their own metrics as well, and there's a system that they're functioning in. So I've been looking at well, what is the business case for more diversity and inclusion when it comes to appearance and bodies and the business case for products and services that make people feel good in themselves rather than like they have to change themselves. And um, there is a strong business case for that when that question is asked. And I find that really fascinating.

Ailey Jolie: 07:57

I want to pause here for a moment because I know some of you may be holding a healthy skepticism as you listen. And I want to honor that. The relationship between well-being and industry is genuinely complicated. Dove is owned by Unilever, a company that has faced fair criticism over the year, including for products sold in other markets that profit from the very insecurities this work seeks to undo. But what is being named here is that tension itself. And I don't want us to necessarily smooth or jump over it, and I don't think our guest wants us to either. What I hear in her work and her words is not an argument for blindly trusting corporations, it's an argument for discernment. And discernment requires pausing, slowing down, being curious with all of the things that we're doing right now. Being curious about who's at the table, what the evidence shows, and whether the outcome genuinely serves people. On that last point, the numbers are really worth sitting with. By Dove's own published accounts, more than 114 million young people across 153 countries have now received body confidence education that has been scientifically evaluated. Whatever we feel about the messenger, that is 100 million nervous systems offered a different story about their bodies. Both things can be true and they can be hard to hold at once as well. Now, back to our conversation. Why are academics resistant to working with corporations?

Phillippa Diedrichs: 09:22

Yeah, I think a couple of reasons. So I think uh, first of all, there's a few good reasons. So there are examples where different industries have lobbied academics and influenced science um through funding, and that has sometimes been in the pharmaceutical industry, tobacco, and the um alcohol industries have also, you know, done that as well. So there can be a skepticism there that if you take industry funding, um, you are somehow influencing the science. So that is a really important consideration, and there needs to be protocols put in place to minimize that. Uh, I also think that historically our training has been very much, and this hasn't necessarily been explicit, but it's been implicit that we do our research, um, that's our job. Um, and then almost as a secondary thought is well, how do you actually then use that research to benefit people? There are huge shifts in this happening in recent kind of particularly over the past 10 years and in different disciplines. So this is not all academics. Um, but the stereotype sometimes of an academic who just stays in the ivory tower or does their research and likes to reflect on problems and is very kind of slow and precise, there is an element of truth to that for some academics as well. Um, and it's a secondary thought uh as to getting it out there. There have been shifts in policy. So, for example, now in the UK, universities are also measured on the social impact that their research has, and there's a whole framework in place for that, and it can influence the funding that universities get, which I think is really a positive step because it's often public funds that are used to fund research, not just industry. And then I also think that we are also, though, interestingly, trained as scientists to remove ourselves from the research. There's this idea that pure science shouldn't be influenced by the researchers, and you can do all sorts of things methodologically to remove that. And it is important because, you know, to an extent, we don't want scientists influencing the results. However, I think perhaps one of the negative consequences of that is that we have sometimes uh, because we are people behind it, there is a reason I'm interested in this topic over other things. We all have our own stories. And if we pretend those stories don't exist, well, you know, I think we're actually influencing things more than what we think and not being kind of um explicit about it. But I think that's part of it is this idea that we should be behind the scenes, the data should speak for itself, the science should speak for itself. Of course, the problem is it's all behind paywalls and also in in academic jargon a lot of the time, which is hard for people to understand. And then I do think we also have a culture in academia. There is a scarcity mindset as well. Funding is very limited for research. The way in which our careers are assessed and measured is by how many papers we publish, how much funding we bring in, how often people cite our research, are we the leading expert in that space? So that can create a level of competition and when there's a scarcity of resource. And sometimes I think that there is this idea that we have it in Australia where I'm from, called tall poppy syndrome, um, which I don't know if people, some people might be familiar with, but this idea that if you, you know, are a tall poppy above all the other poppies, you'll get cut down because people don't like people to be too loud, too successful, and things like that. And so I do think there's an element of that as well. Uh, and it can be quite intimidating to put yourself out there. And we haven't often been trained with the skill set of talking to media, going on social media and showing up. So I think there's that element as well. And so, how do you bring yourself as a full person while still maintaining academic credibility, a level of equipoise and subjectivity or objectivity to your research? I think it's all of those things.

Ailey Jolie: 13:30

I would love if you feel comfortable for you to share a little bit more of your personal experience because that's one thing that also has really stood out uh to me about how you show up is you do have this emphasis on social impact. Like I can see that it's not only is the research really well written and it's clear and it's methodological and it's got all of the things that my time in academia tells me to look for, it's all there. But then there's also this next step. And I would love to hear from you if that was a personal choice, if it was just something you found yourself in, because it is really different. And I deeply believe it's so, so, so important. I'm always feel so honored when I have someone who is in academia who's willing to come on the podcast, who's willing to share, who's willing to spend this time because I'm like your knowledge is so needed out there in like a plethora of now AI writing and slop and just like stuff out there. I'm like, we need you guys, please get take the microphone. So I would love to hear a little bit of your maybe personal journey to come out in that way and to share.

Phillippa Diedrichs: 14:34

Well, I think, you know, just as I said, like why I got into this. Like, I actually, when I was much younger and looking at studying university, and I was looking at the job outcomes of some courses, I actually was interested in anthropology. Um, but the job outcomes were lecture and research. And I was like, well, that sounds so boring. I don't want to do that. I wanted to be out in the world. Uh and so I think it's partly who I am as a person in terms of I like talking to people, I like problem solving, I like being creative, I like being strategic. But the whole reason I do this work is to have a positive impact, which I do believe most academics and researchers have. Um, but for me, there was no other option. I now know that it has a label. There's a thing called strategic science and applied research. So you are conducting research strategically to try and shift and influence things in the world and inform policy, etc. So I think that came quite naturally to me. I also don't know whether I would survive and be able to be an academia if I didn't do that because for me, it's too far removed or too boring. I love getting into rooms of people and connecting with smart, interesting people. They don't have to agree with me. It's actually really helpful for me when my ideas are challenged. Um, but also I am very clear now we can't do any of this alone. So we need to work with each other and with other people and with all the different parties that influence how we feel about our bodies. So I think for me, I also love working um in particular with other really interesting women. And I have worked with people of all genders, uh, don't get me wrong, but there is something really powerful and a lot of the amazing projects that I've worked on have been with really values-aligned women. And I think that's really important to me as well. And the work has to be fun and enjoyable at the same time as making an impact. And um yeah, so it's been really interesting in saying all of that. I've just come out of a year of burnout. Um, after 16 years in kind of academia, going from just finishing my PhD to becoming a professor and leading all these big projects and doing all this amazing work, which I loved and traveling around the world. Um, yeah, I've just had this year of burnout, which completely took me by surprise and was a real lesson in listening to my body and reconnecting with my body. Um and what I was hearing was you can't keep pushing on, you need to stop. And I almost had a year of hibernation, which was so counter to who I am and the things that I love, but I just felt like going inwards. Um and there's lots of interesting books and things about that as well. And now I'm at a point, I'm 43, and I'm thinking I've done all of these things. I was even at the point where I was thinking, do I even want to be an academia anymore? Do I even care about body image anymore? And it was really destabilizing because I followed my passion and I've always kind of followed my values and what excited me. And then if I didn't know what excited me, um, and you know, some of it was circumstances and politics and things like that. And now I'm at the point of kind of thinking, what do I want to do next? And so your question is really timely because it's what I'm doing now is reconnecting with what do I value? Why do I do this work? What is the change I would like to see? What's the best value that I can add in terms of my work? Uh, and I don't have that all figured out. So I think, yeah, I'm reconnecting with that passion and that drive that you spoke about.

Ailey Jolie: 18:26

I love the honesty in the question because I there often can be an assumption when you do value-based work. And I've had this assumption placed on me before that it's always purposeful and always meaningful. And I've oddly, quite some really been deeply hibernating this year and writing a book and being like, what is this all for? What is the reason? What is my want here? Where is this going? And with on staying on this theme of kind of looking forward, where do you see yourself in this space or just this space more generally? Because I know for myself in writing a book, it's been really challenging of like, oh, I'm writing around embodiment, and like most of the things that I'm like engaging with online were like created via AI and are completely disembodied. And how does this all fit together? And this is moving so fast, and I can never move that fast. And so I would just love to even just spend a little bit of time talking about the present moment and how things are changing so rapidly, and we are living dangerously disembodied. And what does that mean for those of us who are passionate about the the body? Because the passion can be quickly extinguished.

Phillippa Diedrichs: 19:40

Yeah. Um first of all, I don't have all the answers. I'm kind of in a messy middle phase at the moment. Um, and you've asked there's lots of pieces to that. I think uh when you do purpose-based work or things that you're really passionate about, obviously there's an element of like self-care and things like that, but also we are functioning in a system as well where we have bills to pay and you know, family commitments and health things that come up and all of those things that happen in life alongside of all of this, and dealing with you know um some really concerning political situations and wars around the world, and then this, you know, AI and the emerging technology, it can feel really destabilizing. Um and certainly like picking up on what we were talking about earlier, this idea of academics getting out there and being more present, and that's been really interesting for me because I know it's important and I try and do it, but also it doesn't necessarily come naturally to me, and it feels like it takes a lot out of me to do that. Um, like if I have to really have time afterwards to go away and regulate or time to myself. I simultaneously love it, but it takes a huge amount of energy from me. But I also know it's important to keep showing up, so it's always that trying to figure out how to navigate that, and um I think what's interesting for me is I've noticed personally in myself during this time of burnout and why I wanted to hibernate. Um in some respects, I was listening to my body in the sense that I just couldn't push through. But then also I stopped exercising and I stopped moving and I stopped kind of I was just doing the bare minimum. And I'm starting to get back into that now. But it's kind of curious to me as why I prioritise the mind over my body because I have got into um Olympic weightlifting and things about five years ago after not being someone who was sporty at all and loved it. And I stopped doing that. And interestingly, it held for about six months, but then the aches and pain started to happen, and you know, you just need to stretch and stuff. But I couldn't, I didn't have the energy to do that, and it was just interesting to me how that was the thing that dropped. When my body actually needed that. But our relationships with our bodies are so complex because as someone who's in a larger body and who's often felt like from a very early age that I take up too much space, I've had a really complicated relationship with movement, exercise, and gyms and fitness spaces. So there's all of that too. And it takes energy to show up in that space as someone who looks different often to a lot of other people. So it's tricky. I think it's really hard. And I think it always keeps coming back to that idea that we have to keep coming back and prioritizing our bodies in some way and reconnecting and finding out whatever that is. One of my things at the moment, and this sounds cliched and weird, but um is I'm really fortunate. I've got a really lovely park just up the road, very small, but a lovely park and sitting under a tree and reading and just feeling, you know, the coolness of the breeze and looking around me and taking that in, and that sensory experience is part of engaging with our body because we're engaging with our senses. And I think sometimes we forget about those ways that we can engage with the body.

Ailey Jolie: 23:06

Thank you for bringing the senseate into your answer and sharing a little bit more around your experience right now and also just naming um and being really honest about we can be in these spaces and still default to the mind. Like I know that for me, I'm in the space of embodiment because like this is so strong, and I'm constantly like, just just just come down just a little bit.

Phillippa Diedrichs: 23:26

Yeah. I mean, just because we're supposedly experts in this, and this is we all have body image and we all live in this world, and my body image isn't perfect. I think I'm fortunate that I have a lot of tools and I've been doing this work, so I have a lot of protective like factors and ways of thinking, and I'm way more confident and embodied than what I am. But also we're changing and the world is changing around us, so our relationships with our bodies are gonna change and we're not perfect. So we also and it would be I don't think the goal here is to be perfect, and because it's you know, it's like the idea that you're not it's not natural or for us to be happy all the time. It's in the same way, I think very similarly we're not gonna love or accept or respect or be in touch with our bodies every single day, every single moment. It's just not realistic. But it's when you can have that time to have that awareness to notice that that's what's happening or has happened, which is what I've been doing, and then taking steps to move back to that. And that will be a never-ending thing, I imagine, in my life.

Ailey Jolie: 24:28

Thank you. And this might be a beautiful place for us to end. I will ask of some of your protective strategies, but just also honoring that we need disembodied moments as much as we need embodied ones. And I think that for me was such a beautiful portal of the same way we need mindless moments to give context to mindful ones. The same is true about our body. And so, how can we hold that? I mean, I went through a I would say a relatively big period of being disembodied, being so sick. I was like, I couldn't be here. Like medically, it was best for me to not be there with the procedures and treatment. But now, how do we come back? It's it's different in here than when I left. Um, I would love to just end with mute, you maybe sharing some of your protective strategies of how you protect your sense of body or body image in the world that we're in right now.

Phillippa Diedrichs: 25:14

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I think uh one of the big shifts for me has been really spending time to focus on body functionality, which is an area that one of my dear colleagues and friends, Jessica, Dr. Jessica O'Lever, um at Maastricht University, has really pioneered this idea of seeing our bodies as more complex. So rather than just these objects that have this appearance to look at, if we can uh look at the complexity of our bodies and all the things that they are doing. And by doing, I just don't, I don't mean just physical ability, I mean like the internal systems, like we were talking about illness like healing or when things do and don't work, um, how our bodies change, but also the senses are a really good example. Um, and trying to think about how my body allows me to do things that are important to me. And that doesn't, because we are going to go through periods of illness, and as we age, we may not be as physically able as we once were, but there are things that we can find that our bodies can do, even if they aren't as able. Um and so, and people of varying abilities. So that's really important noticing that, and by noticing it, you make time to appreciate that actually my body's going through a lot or it's doing these things for me, and that has been really helpful for me. And I also know from the research uh it's a really effective strategy for people to improve their body image. Another really important thing for me is thinking about the types of conversations around me. I can't be uh rule out every type of body image pressure and you know what I call body talk, so the comments and conversations that reinforce narrow beauty standards and uh appearance prejudice. But I can do that more so with my family and friends. It's not easy and it can be tricky, but to cultivate spaces where there is a shared understanding of we're not gonna comment on each other's bodies or what we're eating or you know, all of those things because it doesn't help us and it doesn't help other people. And so making sure I have those spaces, and then if I do go into spaces where I know those comments are gonna happen, being aware of that and kind of telling myself, you know, well, everyone's at a different stage. If I feel up to it, I can challenge it, but also I just don't have to engage, I can just not really respond to that comment. Um, and then debriefing afterwards with the people who I know have that shared understanding. I think those are two things uh for me. And then also, as I said, someone who has never been sporting, never really being into movement, finding movement and activities and spaces and people that I enjoy, or at least probably don't hate is a first point of call. It doesn't feel like punishment, um, but then ultimately can feel like fun has been important to me as well.

Ailey Jolie: 28:11

The colleague who's mentioned here is one whose research has shaped how the field understands body positivity. Her written program, Expand Your Horizon, invites people to describe everything their body does for them, from sensing to healing to connecting. And it's been shown in randomized controlled trials to improve how women feel about their bodies. Her work will be linked in the show notes. Thank you so much for your answer, your time, all of your research. Is there anything that you have upcoming that you would like the listener to know about?

Phillippa Diedrichs: 28:41

Uh, one of the things that I have been working on in my in my burnout has been, again, how do we make these science-backed tools more accessible and get more people using them? And so I've been working on this online training for practitioners or adults who it's actually anyone, coaches, um, it could be a teacher, a parent who wants to work with young people to improve their body image and prevent eating disorders. And so there's an online training that I've developed to make that more accessible that's available that I'm really enjoying putting that out there and having those conversations with people.

Ailey Jolie: 29:17

Thank you again. And we'll include your information, the information for what you've just mentioned in the show notes below. As I sat with this conversation, what stayed with me was not the scale, the numbers, though they are absolutely remarkable. It was the moment that she described a year of hibernation, 16 years of purpose-driven work, and then a body that simply said no. And I want to spend a moment here because what she's described as a physiology, and naming that matters. When we push through for long enough, our nervous system spends years in mobilization in that driven, productive state, our culture rewards so generously. And when the nervous system can no longer sustain it, does not ask for permission. It shifts us in the conversation. The pull towards stillness, toward the bare minimum, toward going inward, all of that was described so honestly. And I want to say none of that is laziness or a failure. And I say this because I know how hard it can be when your nervous system says, and we're gonna pause. The mind can jump in with all different types of judgment. But I also know how deeply empowering and impactful it can be if there's enough safety and resource and time to really honor the body when it says, Hey, we need a pause. Even an expert in body image can be honest and real about her own relationship with her own body and how tricky and tender that can be in different ways. One other thing that I really stayed with was the framework of body functionality that was brought forward and named. I love this because it really asks us to relate to the body not as an object to be evaluated, but a process to be experienced, which is something I'm obviously very passionate about. But it's also another way to move into interceptive awareness and away from self-objectification. And I don't see this as just another simple reframe. Instead, body functionality allows us to honor that digestion, the coolness of a breeze under a tree that we feel. All of that is a part of being in relationship with our body. This is why I hold body functionality and body neutrality as more sustainable goals to move towards than maybe relentless body positivity. Because when we are in body functionality, we are honoring all of the amazing things that our body does for us every single day for us to experience being human, which isn't exactly the message we get about bodies every day. And finally, I want to hold a moment, we shared about disembodiment, because I don't want to end this episode without going back to it. There are seasons in illness and treatment and trauma when leaving the body is truly the wisest thing to do. And I'm the first person to acknowledge and honor that as I've gone through three years of varying illnesses and surgeries, and I've really been forced to learn how important it is sometimes to consciously say, I'm gonna disconnect. This is too much, it's too painful, it's too hard. I need to go into my mind to get through this right now. And so I wanted to circle back because disembodiment is often protection before it's ever a problem. And disconnection doesn't have to be problematic if it's done consciously and if we have tools to guide ourselves back, or even if we have the awareness that it's happening in the moment. The work, then I know that this might be counter to the lot of the narrative around disembodiment or disconnection, but it is something I am so passionate about because we are intended to come and to go, and our body is always working for us, even when it's incredibly hard for us to feel it. If any of this resonates with you and you have felt disconnected or disembodied, I really hope that my words, but also this episode, give you a bit more permission to let go of judging or blaming or shaming yourself for the disconnection or disembodiment you might feel. If you are in a season of wanting to return to your body, maybe after disconnection, or you don't know how to create consciousness around disembodied or embodied moments, and you would like some companionship in the process, you are always welcome to join Embody, which is my embodiment program. We will have another cohort starting in the fall. You can also follow more of my writing on embodiment, which is available on Substack. Lastly, if you want to spend some time body-to-body in person, you can join me in Costa Rica this November. All of those links will be in the show notes. Thank you for allowing me and trusting me to be a part of your tender and ongoing process of coming home to your body. If you found value in this episode, it would mean so much to me for you to share the last friends.