Ep 44 with mariel.

Ailey Jolie (00:06)
Welcome to In This Body, podcast where we dive deep into the potent power of embodiment. I'm your host, Ailee Jolie, a psychotherapist deeply passionate about living life fully from the wisdom within your very own body. The podcast In This Body is a love letter to embodiment.

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Welcome back to In This Body. Today I'm joined by Mariel Paster, a licensed marriage and family therapist, but also an internal family systems lead trainer. has spent over two decades teaching internal family systems across the US and internationally. Before becoming a therapist, Mariel built a successful career in the entertainment industry. was during that time that she discovered how easily our most authentic self can be buried under roles, expectations, and overworking. This experience would eventually inspire her life's work.

helping others unearth their innate clarity, creativity, and confidence through compassionate inner listening. In this conversation, we explore embodiment through the lens of internal family systems, the interplay of creativity and trauma healing, and how learning to listen differently to ourselves can transform the way we live, love, and create. Marielle, it's an honor to welcome you to In This Body, the podcast with me, Ailee Jolie.

So my first question for you today and our time together is a question I've started asking every guest right at the start and I would love to hear from you. What does being in your body mean to you?

Mariel Pastor (02:10)
Such a rich question. My first response that comes up is these days and maybe for a while now, my body is home. And what I mean is it is on a spiritual level. It is my home. It's my manifest home while I'm in this incarnation. And it's also like my vehicle, my transportation. And it has taken me through so many journeys. And I don't think I recognized how important it is to be a good housekeeper until sadly, until maybe the last 15 years or so, and it gets clearer and clearer. So this is my home, it's my sanctuary, it is my vehicle, it is impermanent, and it is absolutely a trustworthy ⁓ resource of information that took a while to appreciate.

That's been a big part of the journey. I'm so happy to say that it's a beloved home right now.

Ailey Jolie (03:16)
I love that answer. I wanted to bring you on to spend some time actually talking about some of the things that were sprinkled into your answer. But before we dive into those, I would love to hear from you how you describe what internal family systems is for the listener who has no idea or has maybe just heard that on a podcast or on an Instagram little carousel reel of how you would describe IFS.

Mariel Pastor (03:41)
So if somebody's heard a little bit about it that they know the name of it, that's a start. And I will say, you know, it's far more intuitive and natural than maybe some of the things you've heard. It's really using and uncovering your natural good relationship skills, but primarily your relationship with yourself. And it's complex. You might feel sometimes at war with yourself. And then we look at who are the different warring parties and what's driving this war. So we just look at the fact that everybody's got layers. We're always talking to ourselves. So we have a way of sharpening our listening skills about what is this inner conversation and how is it impacting our outer contexts. So our other relationships, because we don't live just as this autonomous person, we're in the world. So what's the conversation?

happening inside, what's it about, and how can we have it go easier? If somebody's in therapy, right, people can use IFS for lots of reasons, but in therapy, they're usually wanting to create a change of some sort, and I look at it as peacemaking on the inside.

Ailey Jolie (04:58)
What do you feel like makes IFS as a therapeutic approach maybe different or more unique than other approaches that are out there right now? And you did say something there that I personally think is a part of it. does kind of do some peacekeeping inside. You did also name some of the spiritual aspects and intuitive nature, but I'm curious to hear from you if there's some other things that you think really make it stand out and have led to it being so popular at this specific moment.

Mariel Pastor (05:26)
So I've seen the journey. I wasn't on the very initial ground floor, but I've been doing this now for 30 years. And a lot has changed in our world and in the healing spaces. And I have studied other things along the way because, and I actually don't like the word part that much. I actually don't use the IFS language that much. And especially after all this time, and it's not that I'm against it. It's just that I think it's, a very much more natural way of relating. But at any rate, there is a part of me, a lot of parts of me that don't like just, well, I'll say that like variety and like to test things and like to keep learning and see what aligns, see what feels true. So for IFS over all these years, what has been so important is how systemic

It is. And that's really my first foundation is a systemic philosophy. And it has some approaches, but it's called integral theory. And it looks at body, mind, spirit and culture and how all of these things impact each other and inform each other and that you can't look at any one in isolation because that's the nature of consciousness, frankly. So I knew integral theory

I was studying integral theory at the time I went to graduate school and then I found IFS really early on. And it has just held the most integrated frame for all these other things I would find in like. So I did study other somatic approaches once those became quote unquote legitimized by, you know, the psychological world or the medical world. And I would study lots of different things, ancient traditions.

and find that, you know, IFS has a way of looking at these things. But I always bring in mind, body, spirit, culture, even if the client is starting only on one of those areas, I'm aware that all the rest factor in. So to me, IFS is still the frame that has a way of holding all of it. It's not rigid, it's not constrained, or it shouldn't be. And it just can take a while.

A long while to feel like it is attuned to the practitioner and who they are and coming from their lens while they are hopefully broadening their lenses to meet their clients, if they're using it in therapy to meet all the different lenses of clients. It takes a while to really appreciate the similarities across people while they all have all this uniqueness. So the longer you do it,

the easier it might get or the more creative tool it can be. But I test IFS a lot and have over the years and I feel like this frame really holds so many things. Even if you want to specialize in a particular other type of approach, knowing the systemic nature of the mind, body and spirit is a significant contribution that Richard Schwartz made.

Ailey Jolie (08:21)
can.

Could you speak a little bit more to the systemic mind of the systemic nature of the mind, body, spirit and culture? Because I feel like that piece oftentimes really gets missed out or it's like, it's quite simplified and IFS gives something so large and so vast, some actually really concrete language that I know in my practice allows my clients to start to engage with theories or ideas or systems in a way that they normally would have.

Mariel Pastor (09:12)
Right.

Yeah. You know, people, know I did when I was first a client of any kind of therapy, I needed to know what the heck this person was proposing. We focus on and why, you know, that was coming from protective sides of me. So with IFS, what it is looking at when it looks at the mind, I mentioned these different layers. We're looking at how we develop over time and how natural it is.

as sentient beings that we will need to survive before we can fully thrive. And some protection and survival mechanisms, it's useful, right? It can be overused, overworked, and we're never resting or fully thriving or feeling whole. So IFS looks at how these protectors respond or react to threats.

and how much they're working. So there's the day-to-day kind of protectors that manage our lives. Those are called managers. There's any number of types of managers that will prevent and proactively keep us from feeling too vulnerable. And then there are the reality of life is we will feel vulnerable. We will feel exposed or uncomfortable and we can't always prevent it.

And when that does happen, we're feeling some of the energy that's the negative or the uncomfortable kinds of vulnerability. These other sets of protectors might come in that put out the flames of those feelings. And those are called firefighter parts. They are in the role of helping us get out of danger quickly. So we have managers that are proactive, firefighters that are more reactive. There's a variety of those.

They are informed by our culture and our families and all sorts of things. And then what's being protected, what feels worthy of protection is the more vulnerable sides. And that often gets exiled. So that's the third category of roles, if you will, that parts can fall into. But a part of us, whatever role it's in, is a sub-personality.

of the person. I mentioned that if I'm giving a two minute primer on IFS, almost any part could be put in exile depending on what's valued or what is rejected or hurt by the environment. So for some people, some cultures, creative side, that's not allowed. You can't have that put that away. That could be exiled.

or somebody's ability to stand up for themselves seems like a strength of protection. That could be exiled, that part of the person, that sub-personality. So we have exiles and then the different ways of protecting us from that getting out or getting hurt again. But the other thing that gets protected or covered over, especially if there is a lot of threat or not as much permission to be whole,

is something that's different from all of these parts of our personality. And that is something that is hard to put words to. I start to struggle in describing it, but we could say it's our ground of being. It's our core undisturbed self. It's what's here when all the rest is quiet, referred to by every ancient tradition, the self, the soul, Atman. You can come up with a few other words.

In IFS, we call that the self-energy and it has qualities like compassion, calm, curiosity, connectedness, confidence, creativity, courage. I think I hit them all. And other words that might describe that. However, all of our parts come from consciousness as well. And each of them, when they're unburdened or when they're feeling more natural and at ease and welcome also have.

some core qualities of self-energy. So we are a lovely dynamic, rich, complicated species or consciousness, and we contain all this and more.

Ailey Jolie (13:36)
What do you or what have you noticed be the hardest part of IFS theory or application for someone to come into IFS and really get the model or understand how it's working? And why I ask you that question about the sticky part is oftentimes I will have clients that kind of push back against like a protector or they're it's really hard for them to look at, ⁓ actually, these things don't come from me. They come from culture.

and this kind of more American dream that I'm in control of my life and I have complete autonomy and of my destiny is actually deeply challenged by IFS. And so I would love to hear from you as someone who has offered a lot of IFS and trained a lot of IFS therapists, what you have noticed be some of the sticky spots.

Mariel Pastor (14:24)
there are sticky spots. You are correct. I mean, I had sticky spots as I was referring to as a client early on, like, what are you saying? And that wasn't even IFS, right? So I, my background would be where it was kind of traditional and emphasizing and prioritizing understanding and reason and logic. And if somebody has pushback, something somebody's protective,

First all, I love that we use the word protective. We don't use it as resistance only. There's a reason for it. And so my job and my interest is to understand really well their reason. It's got some basis. So I might approach, depending on who the person is, depending on context is always what I go to first, right? Because I want to attune to who they are and understand where they're coming from.

So they will have their reasons for their pushback. And I might offer one of the different ways we negotiate how we could still proceed. But I will say that I don't ever teach, well, don't I ever, sometimes I might, I'll have to describe some of what IFS is about, but when I got started, there weren't websites about IFS. Dick Schwartz wouldn't have any books out for the public.

My clients did not come asking what type of therapy I did. They asked, they told me what they needed, where they were suffering, and they wanted to know how I would help. So if somebody is giving pushback and maybe they know something about IFS, I kind of don't worry too much about the explanations. And actually, Haley, that's where I will turn them to notice what's happening inside and in their body.

And I won't worry about explaining where something comes from. If there is a strong explaining part of them, I have ways of explaining rationally why we might approach the body and other inner experiences from a non-rational. It's not that it doesn't make sense. It's just not the usual sense-making they're used to. And it's a leap of faith for people.

to try something new. I look at it as everything is feedback. It is impossible to fail. So let's just see. I've got you covered. They need to trust me first before they trust any approach or anything I'm gonna offer. And once they start to get a sense of, they do have more answers inside than they expected, they get excited. And then it starts to be, ⁓ you see, I'm just guiding.

I don't know if that answers your question, but when there's pushback, it will make sense. I have this training. The model is really good at working with the protectors for consent and cooperation. That's big. I'm never going to invite somebody to go somewhere I wouldn't go myself or haven't gone before with others and wouldn't ever go without their collaboration and consent all along the way.

Ailey Jolie (17:41)
I you really beautifully kind of pointed at something that I've definitely have felt with clients and people that have been curious about IFS is that some of the beauty and the magic of IFS is that it isn't scripted and that there is kind of this unknowingness and you are stepping into the void in many ways or getting in touch with your unconscious. And that can be really challenging for people specifically.

some of the clients that I have here in the UK where it's like, I'm so used to having a plan and I know what happens in therapy. And I know for myself, after going through my IFS training, I had to take a step back because then I had this part that was like, well, I know exactly what's going to happen because I know the model and you know, and then I was like, ⁓ I actually have to kind of forget the model for me to surrender to this experience. I can see you nodding along.

Mariel Pastor (18:33)
That's a new challenge with IFS. I do a lot of consultation where my clinicians are saying, know, clients have heard all the podcasts with Dick Schwartz and they've seen videos and demonstrations and they know the model they're studying. They love it. Even the ideas start to land in a very positive way, but it only gets you so far. You will have to at some point work through the emotional charge.

or if there's something held in the body, especially around trauma. But it's a different challenge when people know it because it is a phenomenon of experiencing the moment and trusting the process and trusting the unknown is not something manager led systems like. We like to be in control. It's just that is impossible all the time. And actually it's deadening.

if we don't have some room for spontaneity. But you know, we're patient. I've had clients who it's going to take as long as it takes. I would rather things be real and, you know, very genuine and authentic to the time and the place and the person versus forced and fast and just performative.

Ailey Jolie (19:50)
You

spoke to something there around the embodied quality of IFS. And that was something that really stood out to me when I did my second level two training with you, when you were doing a demo with someone else. I could see the way that you were bringing the felt sense in. And anyone who's familiar with IFS knows that there is somatic IFS and Susan McConnell's there and she has her book and all this. beautiful. And it was really wonderful to watch you bring that in.

in such a way where it was just so integrated and intuitive. And I would love to hear from you how maybe your past experiences in somatics or your own body-based awareness has shifted or changed how you show up as an IFS practitioner or therapist.

Mariel Pastor (20:34)
Well, like I said with the question of your first question about, you what does having a body or your body mean to you now? It has been a journey. I credit experiential therapies and the first type I ever did was parts-oriented voice dialogue, which was all direct access, just embodying a part. And then learning IFS shortly after really brought all the pieces together for me.

But it was my experience as a client where I had to make peace and celebrate my body. wasn't where I began in my life. And so I feel like I'm glad for my upbringing because I can appeal. can relate to people who are coming in very blocked from their body. But as you were mentioning the somatic resonance, I feel like my peacemaking and my awareness from my own growth has incrementally been evolving and I've seen it change my outer relationships. And so this parallel of the inner relating and the outer relating, how I am in the world, this feedback loop just keeps informing, trusting this process, keep going back in. 

My clients have taught me so much. I am still to this day, reminding myself that just because I do this work every day doesn't mean somebody else does. And when they give me any amount of trust, I mean, I'm, like people. always have liked people. So I, it's one way I ended up in this field. So I can easily like the other person there or find something. And even if they're really crusty and hard privately, I know, there's a sweetheart in there somewhere. They just got missed.

 So, depending on how crusty they are, I may not be like all warm and oozy with them because that would repel that part of them. But in therapy, I think it matters that the person who is witnessing, who you're telling your story to, wants to hear from you, trust you, is going to be not just an ally, but a guide. I've got their back. And something about if I'm holding myself that way and I'm... you know, with them. I trust that in myself. I've received it from other people sitting with me. It just keeps going. And I think it is a precious moment to sit with somebody else's story. I start to feel my body soften and open and I feel a kind of not emerging with them, but there is a field between us that to me is very palpable.

in my body. I wouldn't say my first therapy session as a therapist was like this. It was the furthest thing from it. it just being a therapist is actually good for me. Sitting in, not even just a therapist, doing one-on-one with somebody of any kind, it's good for me. It's about love. And when I see a client start to make peace with something in themselves and start to love something about themselves more, it's so moving.

It's just, it's moving. Not every session is like that. It's always hard when I see them leave still at war with themselves, but I am grateful for all the different things, especially IFS, that have affirmed my faith in people are not booby-trapped as the word is in America. We're not stuck without some ways for things to expand and go a little more easily, nor is it all up to us as an individual.

We need others. So at first it might just be the therapist, but when we get more trust and our ability to trust our instincts, we'll know who else is worthy of being allowed in.

Ailey Jolie (24:35)
would love to spend some time speaking to you about this topic because I don't really get to ask people about it, but you're like laying all the foundation to it. And it was a huge topic of my master's in somatic studies. And that's the intercorporeal space between therapist and clinician. And it's that like beautiful bubble of like mirror neuron attunement and resonance and nervous system activation. And I would love to hear from you why you feel like that.

is A, so important in the world that we're in right now, bringing in those aspects of love, and B, why it's oftentimes so hard for any of us to allow ourselves to receive that.

Mariel Pastor (25:18)
Well, it feels to me like we are wired as mammals to connect. There's no extra points for getting through it alone, nor is it possible. So that wiring to be with is foundational to our very existence. And we aren't figuring it out cognitively. We are doing it as bodies.

as entities and hopefully something shows up from the environment or we perish. Right? So it's on that very basic animal level. And then of course it gets more and more sophisticated and there's also joy in it, you know, and this play that comes from the being with someone else. And to me, creativity is spirit. And it feels like, you know, that just wants to keep finding itself over and over again is a favorite quote.

goes. I think that residents in therapy, if we're well trained, or I will say that the trainings I prefer are the ones that emphasize this. all the research since humanistic therapy, Rogerian, Carl Rogers work shows that that relationship with the therapist, that's not there. It doesn't really matter what the approach is. It doesn't matter as much because somebody could come in with a lot of their own

self-awareness and self-trust and all that. In spite of the therapist's, you know, flaws, let's say, or lack of attunement, this person could still get something out of it. But there's something about that field between us that matters. And if I may come back to your other question about somatics, because that resonance, that mirroring sets the stage, and there is something about the way the body is expressing in the moment, unconsciously, between both people.

little gestures. And I like to bring in, I also studied, and Susan McConnell is a dear friend, so I'm glad her name has been mentioned now twice. Not only Susan, but some of where she comes from is sensory motor offers a lot as well about movement and completing movements and trauma, natural protective inclination. So when all of that comes together, the space that is well held,

to do hard things, however long that takes. Because it's not my agenda that somebody needs to be somewhere other than where they are. Although I know there are parts of them that have brought them to meet with me because they would like to change. They're just conflicted. So I think it could all come together. Timing is everything, the person's context. You asked why might they, you know, our world needs this. There's so much trauma.

There's collective trauma every day, every hour. The planet is being assaulted by humans and other creatures as well. I often say we're, you know, we can be so horrible and so beautiful all at the same time, you know, so cruel. But our world does need this. And I'll say I remember working. I was in my office on Tuesday, September 11th when the Twin Towers came down and

Sitting with clients all day, some who paid attention to it and some that were really traumatized could not look at the world. It depended on who the person was. But I remember that day feeling like if there's one bit of peace that is made in this moment, one extra bit of love that is made in this moment, that's something. Small acts add up to bigger acts. Some people will be ready to take a bigger action.

Some people won't, maybe they'll just be kind to the stranger on the way home. I'll take it. On the big overwhelming news days, news days, yeah, I have to remind, I remind myself of that because it can feel daunting to say the least.

Ailey Jolie (29:24)
When you think of IFS and where it has led you, how do you feel like it has led you into more of a place of love? Because what I heard as you were speaking there and the dauntingness and kind of the small acts of love is not something that's typically in a therapist's vocabulary. Like it's, it's not. I also trained in Hakomi. so I had that background of really my first deep dive into a theory was Ron and I.

always credit all of everything I do as a therapist. I always say it's my hook on me training. Like it's my hook on me training. Like he really, I really learned love, reading those books and looking at the research. And I would love to hear from you why you've, you've touched on a little bit, but to go a little bit deeper about why it's so important for a client to receive that from their clinician and their therapist.

Mariel Pastor (30:14)
I mean, it's the source of healing and there are many different ways it might appear, but if something is healing, I think love is at work. I have to say, I'm hearing from the part of me that grew up outside Chicago in the 60s and 70s. It's like, my God, do you know how you sound? That's so, and I raised my hands and go, you know what? I am just appreciating what has felt real and true for me. And I am so grateful that whatever conspired.

to lead me to this finding, this discovery. I feel better when I am in that space. And it's not only soft, love isn't only soft. Love will prompt me to stand up and love others and protect from harm if I can. And it doesn't mean by the way, here comes another part that's like.

By the way, I'm working as hard as anyone else on some days to keep my head above water. But more often than not, even on those days, if I follow the path of my distress, let's say inward, sooner or later, I will come down to, I am not alone. Not only are there others around me, perhaps, but down deep, I am not alone. Somehow there is a way and there is support, which is a kind of love. There is patience, which is a kind of love.

There is courage, is courage, which is the heart is inside of courage. And it's almost always what I need to hear when something is feeling amiss. So why not have it be in therapy? Somebody is suffering. often is missed, what I learned that creates PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, isn't just the traumatic event. It was where was the love? Where was the witness? Where was the support?

at the time something horrible happened. When there are communities that are full on traumatized, then we need bigger communities to hold that. And too often that's not there. So where was that witness, that loving patient, abiding witness?

Ailey Jolie (32:24)
I really appreciate that you have brought this in and that we're spending time talking about this because in the psychedelic assisted psychotherapy world, the presence of love was definitely something that really drew me in and wanting to work there and get trained there and participate in research there because it felt like a space where that was really encouraged to be loving and to offer your clients love.

Hearing you say this is also putting dots together for me around why IFS also felt like a second home. Because when you go into those trainings, at least my experience is definitely at the facilitators or the teachers and people that have been more seasoned in it, the people I've done consultation with, is there is just kind of this like unwavering love towards like all my shitty icky parts that may come up or my da da da or my this and my that. And you can hear in the way that an IFS practitioner speaks,

is that they do have that peacekeeping inside. And this, it's almost like this internal congruence. I like to think of it like a little bit like of an internal wave. That's kind of how I imagine it of just like nothing is really siloed or put away anymore. There's a little wave of love connecting all these different parts. And I would love to hear from you if that resonates and if that's something that you feel like.

motivated you to move some of your work into character mapping and kind of go into more of the creative aspects, which is a space that we both share. work with a lot of artists and a lot of musicians and I love it because they're so spiritual and it's such a good fun and they really are there for love. They're such loving people and they just, learn a lot from them. So I'd love to hear from you if it was kind of the thread that led you into that space, but also then just kind of opening up a bigger conversation around.

creativity and healing and I.

Mariel Pastor (34:14)
Yeah, I'm also all of that resonates for me. All of that resonates for me. And knowing you've been public about your story and some of your background and your dedication to your own health and healing and the things you've explored, not only I.F.S. but Hacombe and psychedelic assisted therapy. You know, these these are not for the timid. They're also not to be feared.

you know, but they are ⁓ potent and trustworthy tools and you've done that work. So I find that whatever the modality is, if the practitioner has been willing to go into their whatever untended spaces, then they are going to find something like this. You know, there's no getting around doing our own work at the end of the day. I don't know. I tried.

Ailey Jolie (35:13)
yeah

i know, you me too, it didn't work, really didn't work i kept trying the more psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, just had to keep going until i found an analyst and they were like stop this

Mariel Pastor (35:24)
Yeah. She just, you've got, we've got to do our own work. Yes. If I could have gotten around it, I probably would have. It's just anyways, and I say that sometimes you can read all the books. If I could just make a part of you go away, I suppose I would, but I had to do my own work and I had a lot of grief early on. I did have traumas happen at the same time that I learned IFS. But to your question about

about the love, I think, that was in there. A couple of things are coming to mind. It goes back to really maybe just as I was becoming a therapist and a little bit before that, I was in Los Angeles when Marianne Williamson was just getting started and was having these talks on The Course of Miracles. So I was hearing about it, not as directly from her. I could never get in. She was very popular from the beginning, but I would hear about The of Miracles from others. And I remember hearing that

Everything is love or a call for love. And that just, again, coming back to the body, in me, it feels like something around my heart center and solar plexus just goes, mm-hmm, that's right. And then from psychology or wherever else, there are all these other ways we look at, what is that call for love? Is violence really a call for love? Well, maybe somewhere down deep, but boy, is it twisted. But you untwist things and you can find.

So I don't want to say everything can just be neatly packaged like that and there's no further discussion. But I have found that the second thing I was going to mention is my very first supervisor. When I finished grad school, he had said something. I think I was doing voice dialogue and I was mentioning the energy work and he was very sage like and he said about that energy. He was testing me a little.

But he asked two questions about that energy. He's what do you think of that? He said something about, he was testing me around loving my clients or liking my clients. And he was testing, that going to be interfering like counter-transference? He's like, do you think you can really love or like your clients like that? And I said, well, I don't see why those two things are mutually exclusive. He's like, good answer. But then he said something like everything is. He said, I think that energy thing has something to it.

Again, this was like the 90s or so. There weren't, you know, a lot of the energy work that is now much more integrated into psychology just wasn't there in the field then. Spirituality wasn't in the field then. So I felt like, and he studied shamanism a bit. He worked at a teaching hospital, but it was safe with him. Like, he's like, yeah, you can like and love your clients. I mean, why would I open up to somebody

who's judging me or wants to change me. I say that to clients sometimes when I'm supporting them having a new way to listen to themselves from their self-energy, from some curiosity at least, if not compassion, let's just try open-mindedness, some curiosity. And I'll say, just imagine if you came in here and you're feeling all...

in pain or angry or something and I'm sitting across from you with my arms folded and I'm rolling my eyes and I'm like, oh God, they're just telling me this again. You wouldn't open up to me, nor should you. You so you might not like this part of you, but anyway, we'll get there. Let's just listen. At the end of the day, there's always something worthwhile, likable, or at least understandable.

Ailey Jolie (38:57)
Mm.

Mariel Pastor (39:12)
So everything is love or a call for love once we understand it. And that may take some time, but at least I'm going to hold that faith that it's there mostly because I had to do that work myself. And boy was I surprised. Yeah. You asked about the arts and I think I, you know, I haven't had a grand plan for my life and it's lucky that I've

Ailey Jolie (39:31)
Yes.

Mariel Pastor (39:41)
had pretty good risk-taking results. I ended up in the music business before I knew there was a music business. And I always loved music. And hey, what do you know? I've got this career in the music business. It's been kind of like that with major changes, different places I've lived. I'm grateful something was calling. I followed something in me, but I'm coming back to the music business and entertainment. was working as an executive in both and I...

was drawn into psychotherapy after being in entertainment, mostly for my own health. just had to get out. didn't like who I was becoming. But once I got to grad school, I couldn't help thinking about all the artists I had worked with and wondering, I had this question, do you have to be tortured to be an artist? I mean, that's not fair. Why should, I mean, that stinks. And then I started to think about personality and is it,

it wasn't trauma, even though we were only just starting to talk about trauma at the time I was in grad school. And so I was just sitting with all these wonderful, creative people. I loved working with the artists. I did not love the industry. I liked some of the people in the industries, but Hollywood in general, I did not love. And I became a therapist and felt like every client was every bit as interesting as a protagonist of their own story. And they all had.

you know, this richness and IFS helped me see it. So to come back to the artists, it really wasn't a big leap. They were always in mind. And so then I created this package of psychological tools, everything I kind of learned systemically with IFS at the heart to help them not have to be tortured or use their wounds for their muse. I think that is insane. And it's

too common.

Ailey Jolie (41:38)
love those words that you just said of not using your wounds as your muse because that was definitely such a large story that I had with artists before I started working with them. it's taken me a long time to even acknowledge the history I had in the entertainment industry because it did feel like it was from such a wound. But in, you know, my own inner work and then also being the therapist for a lot of artists, it's allowed me to see that there's also such deep

wisdom and spiritual connection in those exact same places. And that exact opening of the wound that you maybe are using for your muse is also the same opening for what can be the most embodied, liberated expression and divine connection as well. And that has been like a really interesting, almost in my mind, like oxymoron. Like I remember when I started working with them, I was like,

This feels like so wild that it's the same place. And then it made me go, maybe that's the same place in me as well.

Mariel Pastor (42:42)
Yeah, yeah. So since we're here primarily as an IFS topic, I would say that those wounded parts are often the exiles. And I think at least for actors, will, other storytellers will say, you've got to get to this stuff that's under, that's driving it, right? That the exiled material, that's the truth. The thing is the wound isn't the whole truth.

It's the part that was carrying that wound. A lot of times those exiled parts are very young, playful, spontaneous, intuitive, creative. And in transpersonal psychology, and this is one way I hold IFS as well, those really young, tender, playful, innocent, all of that stuff is so close to our core self. And when artists talk about

Everything else falls away. They are in the moment. Some of it does feel like play, but then it's also, what is this channel? I don't even know where I was. That's There's nothing yummier than that.

Ailey Jolie (43:53)
Couldn't agree more. Absolutely. I adore all my clients, but it's always such a little, it's such a treat when I have a day and it will just be all musicians. And I'm just like, Oh my goodness, that's wonderful. But what you spoke about there was just like this, I am almost imagine it like the just like kind of rubbing against each other, which is the trauma and creativity. And I don't feel like the healing application of creativity or creativity.

Mariel Pastor (44:14)
That's right.

Ailey Jolie (44:21)
being a sign that healing has happened or recovery from PTSD, of, I'm using these terms very loosely, has happened is a conversation that's brought in that often. And I would love to hear from you why that has maybe been missed when all of the research really points towards that creativity is deeply healing and that it's also a sign that the psyche is healing.

Mariel Pastor (44:43)
Yeah. Why hasn't it been brought in? Well, there's a cynical voice in me that wants to answer. I don't know how much money is in healing. know, I have heard some artists tell me if I heal my wound, I'll lose my creativity. Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, I know from my own experience and from working with clients, healing doesn't mean forgetting.

It's not like our wounds can't inform us, but they don't have to be us. I would love for the artist, the storyteller, to take care of their own health, to learn who they are, to have their stuff really be consciously used or not used in service of the story. The artist, the storyteller, they can get healthy. The character, the character can stay as neurotic as it needs to. That's fine. They will have their own story arc anyways.

But yeah, I think it also happens in clients where their protectors, their conditioning believe that if we go inside and we look at that wound, that's who I really am. And they conflate the exiled part, that tender part of them is the wound. And they also think that child, let's say, is who they are down deep. no, that child is down deep. But that's not all of you either.

So it's, but I can say it or they can discover it. And to your point about creativity, I think when, you know, there'll be plenty of wounded people who will secretly tell me, yeah, well, when I get to, you know, I have a client who likes to do aerial, you know, acrobatics and she feels free. Or people who will draw just privately, the rest of the world's a mess, but when they're drawing, they feel free. I'm like.

Somehow we're given the resources inside of us. are again, not trapped. It's not all pain, but to go towards the pain and find the light, that's a big ask. People, want to believe you, but what if you're wrong? So that's what I'm like, I know.

Let's just see. Let's go there together. Let's just in my office, just for this moment. Let's talk about the concerns. Sometimes they'll have a spontaneous moment of joy and creativity. I'm like, well, how do you explain that? The rest of your life's a mess. It was in there. So.

Ailey Jolie (47:15)
Why do you think that IFS maybe lends itself to creatives? Because that is something that I've really noticed is my clients who are maybe more connected to their creativity are more friendly to IFS language.

Mariel Pastor (47:31)
Yeah, I have found it to be true as well. And that is another reason why I love working with creatives. like, oh, they're willing to try something. I will say novelists or other kinds of writers aren't necessarily as willing to embody some of their own inner work. So I kind of approach character mapping.

a little differently with them from a different angle. Like we often say in therapy, it can be a top-down approach or a body-up approach or both. But when I work with performers, I'm like, no, we're gonna have fun. This is gonna be great. But I also want to not presume that we couldn't run into something that nobody was expecting. And it has to be trauma-informed and consent-informed. So I did learn that early on with character mapping.

But I think there's less inhibition, especially for actors or performers, if they studied their craft, have been, they're either gonna be able to perform or they're not, you know? They're have to get through some of that.

Ailey Jolie (48:37)
Is there a way that you have started to be able to track or to notice when someone is performing their therapy? Because I have clients who are there sometimes they're like, I don't know if I'm really like in it or if I'm just like performing it because that's what I do all the time.

Mariel Pastor (48:52)
mean, that is nuanced work because it also depends on the person. There's nothing wrong with performing, I would say. So I would want to make really sure I would have it be not shamed, however I would bring it forward. But I would start to have them focus either, again, on the body. Where is the attention? Where is the energy inside of you when, right in this moment.

Where is the activity? So is it in the head a bit? Where is it forward? How much efforting is going in, I look at. So if that's happening, I'll go, that's great. You can tell. I wouldn't make it a problem. I'd be like, how big is that? What if that could rest? What if that could unblend? That's an IFS term about having something step back or not being the lead. Because I think when there is...

the spontaneity the moment, an answer just arises. And so in therapy, I noticed that people will have the smart parts that want to perform for me, be the good client, totally happens. And that happens for different reasons. They don't want to be judged. They'd rather stay in control and not look over here. A lot of reasons. But I can also ask the question of, where did that answer come from? And sometimes you just get the feel of,

That was spontaneous. That was, didn't feel that way. But even if it was performed or it was thought of, I'm like, well, is it serving the moment? Okay, I don't care. Let's just be conscious about it. Does that make sense?

Ailey Jolie (50:31)
It does make sense. Before we close for today, would love to ask you if there's anything that we didn't touch on today that you would like to bring into our time together today for the listener.

Mariel Pastor (50:43)
there's something about patience that matters. You mentioned before how much our world needs healing. And I think that's, you know, very, very true. It's hard to be patient and we can be patient with our patients. I don't mean to be cheeky, but it turns out that we are conditioned to be impatient. want results. And of course.

I don't want any, I don't want to suffer any longer than necessary or have anybody else. But if we can hold our suffering first and just be with it and try to trust that even pain is a gate that holds wisdom. So having patience and when we lack patience for ourselves, find others that have patience for us, whether they are a therapist or a wise friend or somebody else that can hold the space. Cause we, we don't go forward alone. We go forward together.

Ailey Jolie (51:38)
Thank you so much for your time and for being here. And I wanted to give you an extra thank you before we popped on. I shared that I went to your training when I was really sick and I didn't know what was going on in my body. But there was something I felt when you were doing the demo, there was just a way that you were holding yourself and guiding the other participant.

that just like sparked this little sense of aliveness in my like numbness. I've been sick for so long. That just like, I just had this feeling and I was like, my goodness. Like there's like, I'm really shut down. Like I'm really disconnected from my body. And I remember just kind of like watching your like vitality and aliveness. And I was like, she has something that I used to have and I don't know where I lost it.

And it sparked me into being like, okay, I really need to sort out my health here. Like, this is a real thing. And so I just always, I know as a clinician myself, I don't expect praise from my clients ever. And I know that it's not, if you're actually doing your job well, that you're not going to get it. And that's, that's a good sign. But I wanted to really give you a thank you for all of, you know, what you offered in that training, but also all of the ways that you've attended to your parts, that by just being in proximity to you.

something inside my body could change. And that is something that I am so grateful for when I do meet someone who has done, has made enough peacekeeping inside that they bring peace into the presence of everyone around them, if the other people are open to some degree or not. So thank you.

Mariel Pastor (53:17)
Well, thank you and you carry it forward. And I thank my teachers and we have this one life, right? And there's nothing I obviously didn't know that story. So I'm glad you shared it. Cause I wasn't doing that obviously consciously, but there's you, there's me. This is what I often believe about healing. There's you, there's me, whatever the woundedness and something else. That's something else that you can put words to or not, but.

We're not alone in doing this.

Ailey Jolie (53:48)
Thank you and we'll have all of your notes so the listener can find you, figure out where you are, retreats, trainings, those things that are coming up. But do you have anything coming up in the next few months that you would like the listener to know about?

Mariel Pastor (54:01)
Well, character mapping as an online program will be launched this fall. That is an integral summary of what character mapping has. And that'll be downloadable. But I am really looking forward to doing more IFS coaching for storytellers. So I'm already set up to do that. But other than that, it's a lot of consulting and training and having wonderful conversations like this. It's not work when this is the subject. So it's play.

Ailey Jolie (54:32)
Thank you so much for your time today.

Mariel Pastor (54:34)
You got it.

Ailey Jolie (54:40)
If you found value in this episode, it would mean so much to me for you to share the podcast with friends, a loved one, or on your social platforms. If you have the time, please rate and review the podcast so that this podcast reaches a larger audience and can inspire more and more humans to connect to their bodies too. Thank you for being here and nurturing the relationship