Ailey Jolie (00:06.264)

Welcome to In This Body, podcast where we dive deep into the potent power of embodiment. I'm your host, Ailee Jolie, a psychotherapist deeply passionate about living life fully from the wisdom within your very own body. The podcast In This Body is a love letter to embodiment.

podcast dedicated to asking important questions like how does connecting to your body change your life? How does connecting to your body enhance your capacity to love more deeply and live more authentically? And how can collective embodiment alter the course of our shared world? Join me for consciously curated conversations with leading experts. Each episode is intended to support you in reconnecting to your very own body.

This podcast will be available for free wherever you get your podcast, making it easy for you to stay connected to In This Body, the podcast with me, Ailee Jolie.

Welcome back to In This Body. Today's guest is someone whose work has refined the way we understand love, relationships, and intimacy. Dr. Sarah Nassarzadi is a social psychologist, renowned sexologist, and relationship expert who's worked with couples and individuals across more than 40 countries. She is the author of Love by Design, Six Ingredients to Build a Lifetime of Love, where she introduces the emergent love model.

This groundbreaking model identifies six essential ingredients for cultivating and sustaining lasting relationships. Attraction, respect, trust, compassion, shared vision, and loving behaviors.

Ailey Jolie (01:37.004)

Sarah's work invites us to see love not as something static or given, but as an involving, intentional, and embodied experience. In today's conversation, we'll explore the core principles of the emergent love model, focusing on how love lives in the body and how embodiment supports deeper connection, trust, and resilience within relationships. We'll also talk about the practical tools for fostering relational health and address some of the common misconceptions around attraction, desire, and intimacy. Sarah, it's an honor to have you here. Welcome to In This Body, the podcast with me.

Ailey Shully.

Ailey Jolie (02:13.774)

first question I have for you today that I ask all of my guests right at the start, but when I ask you, I'm really curious about it in regards to relationships and the realm of love. But what does being in your body mean to you?

I often think if you don't have a body, you don't have a home. So it means for me, it's the home. And in many languages that I'm familiar with, know, body has a different terminology to refer to. It's like your temple, your home, your place of peace. So I think that's what it means to me too. I love that. In your book, Love by Design, you

introduce the concept of emergent love model. And I would love to hear from you the six core ingredients, because when I read the book and was engaging with the concepts, I was like, I've heard this stuff before, but this is the first time it's really integrated into a model that's really effective and useful and also really applicable to I found myself being like, I can really integrate this in. So I would love to hear from you how you would describe the emergent love model.

And then we'll go through some of the six core relational ingredients as well. Sure. So the six ingredients are attraction, respect, shared vision, being loving, compassion, and trust. And these are all reciprocal, mutual and reciprocal. Not the same way, but reciprocity of it is very important.

The way that these terminologies are defined are a little bit different than what we know because language has its limitations, right? So we talk about trust, we talk about respect, but what do they actually mean to different people? If I say, I trust you, you trust me. What do we actually mean? Now that we are talking about trust, for example, trust has two major components, consistency and reliability. Respect is, you by definition is to see and to see again.

Ailey Jolie (04:20.064)

So constantly thinking that what are your priorities? Where do I fit in your life? Where do you fit in my life and in the whole relational space? Right? The boundaries come into play, the negotiation come into play. So for each of those, I'm hoping that based on our research, we were able to offer a little bit of a nuanced definition of these and also some actionable items for each of those. So now I get it, consistency, reliability. How does that look like?

in every interaction for the couple. Imagine love model as opposed to the model that many of us grew up with, which I call submergent model of love. Submergent is one plus one equals one. You meet another person, you merge resources of time, energy, attention, money, social circle, you know, all of that. And then when you become one with each other, then we call it falling in love. We call it

not being able to live without each other, finishing each other's sentences, one soul into two bodies, so many different terminologies that we have, analogies, metaphors that we use. Imogen Love Model is based on systems thinking that actually Ajam Sheet Gharachadaghi influenced me a lot because he's one of the fathers of systems thinking. As I was reading his book, I realized that love is an emergent entity.

If you really think about it, there are certain ingredients that need to interact with one another on a consistent quality and basis for love to even has a chance to emerge. So if you imagine spark and a log coming together in a conducive context, they will give you what? Cozy fire. But if you make the log a little wet, or if you take the spark away, or the oxygen for that matter,

The fire dies, there's no negotiation, right? And I wanted to know that how to get to that fire, which I call emergent love, and what goes into it. That's why the six ingredients and the definitions of it. So that's the model. What led you to design the model? Because I know it's rooted in research and I would love to hear that piece because often

Ailey Jolie (06:41.608)

in the relational space, things aren't so rooted in research, which is why I found your book so beautiful to engage with. Thank you. So as a researcher, I always want to know whatever that I'm thinking, is there somebody else out there who thinks that way? Can we scale it? Can we actually expand it to the human condition? Can we help more and more people with this or not? So that's the research hat on. That's why I wanted to do this.

Personally, I was one of those people that stopped going to weddings when I was 15 because I figured if 50 % of them are going to lead to divorce, why bother? It was a really disastrous statistic to read at that age. And then I went to my own marriage and then experienced high codependency with my husband. Then coming from that submergent love, I thought we had it all. I thought it was perfect until I figured it wasn't.

Because the sense of thriving was not there, that enmeshment was there, that feeling of safe and coziness was there. But the sense of thriving was not there after a period of time. I talk in the book how I had a panic attack, for example, because I figured there's nothing left of me. We did finish each other's sentences. We did share the same hobbies, same everything, everything. That's why I thought it was perfect, because that was the story I was told. But then...

That is the personal piece that I really wanted to figure it out because now I have a son. And I was thinking, okay, is he going to go through that? Maybe there's a better way. And then clinically speaking, sitting with a lot of individuals, couples across the world, and the same pain kept coming up. I love them, I'm not in love with them. How do I know this is the right person? Where do I put my efforts?

Because you know, majority of relationships don't falter because people are lazy and they don't make an effort. We all do make an effort, but I'm sorry to say we put it in the wrong place. So we really, you know, pour all of our resources into places that they don't really bring us the fulfillment and the outcome that we want to achieve. So that was the main reason I went to research.

Ailey Jolie (09:00.462)

And also I couldn't sit with pain with clients, heartbroken clients, day in, day out. And I was thinking, Sarah, you're the expert. You should do better than this. You should know better than this. You can't just hold the safest space. You should be able to tell people, hey, here's the path. Take it if you like, but there is a path. So all of those went to creation of this research and this model.

You said something that really piqued my curiosity there. You mentioned that people are putting in the effort. It just may be misdirected. Those are my words. Where do you see people commonly putting in effort and also maybe spaces where they're not putting in effort where they really need to? That's a great question. You know, it depends case by case, right? But majority of Northern America, Western Europe audience that

I work with, they talk a lot. It's not like they don't communicate or they don't talk, but they talk about things that they don't really matter. So for example, I come to you and say, Ailee, here are my boundaries. I am waking up at eight o'clock. You take care of the children. I am going to the gym and the first day comes or the fifth day comes. I am the one who is lagging. I am the one who is walking all over my own boundaries.

and the parameters that I put for myself. And as my partner, you will get confused that, okay, so what are we doing? So the effort went into clarifying what I want, right? But did I follow through? No. So that's what I mean. Or for example, we go on dates. Majority of people who want to go to date night, the first thing that comes to people's mind is where do we go to eat?

Let me clarify something. Eating is beautiful. It's a good shared experience in majority of known romantic places they didn't delight so that, you know, with the dilation of your pupils without getting too nerdy, you feel that sense of trust with the other person, you know, all of that. I get it, people, right? However, scientifically, physiologically speaking, when you eat, especially if drinks are involved, your brain is somewhere else.

Ailey Jolie (11:22.69)

Right? So your brain is dimmed. Your brain is not as sharp with alcohol. And then when you eat, the digestive system absorbs all the, you know, the blood goes there because I'm digesting something. So how is that going to help? And also you're not going beyond seeing that, you know, the person that you're dating, how they're interacting with the gas or like the server or, know, what not beyond that, what are you seeing from this person? You know, so go them, maybe if there's a car.

Like go for a drive, see how they communicate with other people, you know, as they are driving. Or for example, go on a hike, go on different experiences that matter to you and matter to them. Assess your competibilities there. So these are the things that I want people to open their minds to. Or before even getting to dating, there are so many people, say, you know what, I go to my cave, do my own work and then come out and date people.

That's not going to work, right? But there are certain things that came out of our research that we call individual fundamentals. Financial attitude has a direct, statistically significant link to the outcome of a couple, outcome of a relationship. So the financial attitude matters. The way that we connect to the world around us matters. I need to know what are my pet peeves? What are my quirks? That could be the pet peeve for the other person.

Right? And what are my sensitivities? Meaning that, you know, maybe I was in a relationship or in a family that trust was an issue. So I have a chip on my shoulder. I need to know that about myself. So these are the works that need to be done beforehand. Right? Then inside the relationship, we need to know where to put the efforts that matters to the other person. A lot of us abide by the golden rule, do to others as you want to be done to you.

But how about the platinum rule, which is more applicable in relationships due to others as they want you to do to them? Your partner multiple times told you, it doesn't matter when I come through the door, the food is ready and candlelight, whatever, that doesn't matter to me. Can you please come to the door and greet me? Give me a kiss. That matters more to me. Right? So these are the things that efforts put where it matters.

Ailey Jolie (13:47.882)

In your clinical experience, why have you maybe observed it being harder for people to take on the platinum rule as you just described it than the golden rule? Are there some cultural or social components that you feel make that tricky? And I asked this question hoping to tap on your really wide range of cultural experiences working all across the world with different relational structuring.

Sure, we all come from blueprints, So for example, if I want to show my partner respect or if I think that a woman needs to appear this way in this relationship versus this person with non-binary affiliations or orientations or cisgender. So we all have assumptions around that. We all have blueprints that we are shaped by that.

Those are shaped by our culture, socio-cultural context. And then we've seen as we grew older and older, we've seen how those expectations are shaped based on those. Based on those expectations, we choose the rules of engagement. How are we showing up in each scenario? And then said or unsaid, we are also expecting rewards or punishment based on those.

So that's the bigger scope at the macro level as how we are influenced by the cultural and social context that we are in. And then language has a lot to do with this too. As how we define certain things, how we talk to one another. Again, going back to what I said earlier, I can say, love you, you can say, I love you back, but do we mean the same thing? And what are the actions that are affiliated with that?

Those are the things that vary vastly across cultures and across different countries that I'm familiar with. If I bring us back to the platinum rule, how do you kind of inspire the people that you work with to embody more of that in their relationships? Right. And I'm just noticing that you asked me also that about the different cultures. Look, there are

Ailey Jolie (16:07.562)

A majority of us, especially people who grew up with religious doctrine, like the main religions in the world, grew up with the golden rule. So, and that is the easiest way to bring compassion to a situation, to say that, you know what, you don't want me to use, you know, name, you know, name calling for you, then don't do it for other people. And listen to us when we are even talking to our children, like, well, Alice did this to you and you didn't like it.

Do you like somebody else doing it to you? So that's golden rule is embedded in us, right? Beautiful. But we are not saying that Alice asked you 100 times, don't do this. Right? So it's one level up a little bit of a maturation and a little bit of a stepping out of yourself to not have that assumption. So when we are self-centered in a way, not necessarily in a bad way, but we can't go from the golden rule to the platinum.

Right? So to answer your question, I think it's very important to tap into one of the main ingredients of the book. And I know a lot of people with different backgrounds might define compassion and empathy differently. But for me, if you want to master the platinum rule, you abide by compassion, not empathy. Compassion is being there for the other person without making it about me. Empathy is

feeling for the person, feeling with the person, right? Feeling with the person and based on my assumption that how I would feel better in this situation or what I would need, then I will abide by the golden rule, right? So if you really think about it that way, the separation between empathy, feeling with the person and compassion, feeling for the person, I think that will guide people to do what you just said, that you know, step away from that and embody it.

I love that you pulled at maturity and the self centered kind of miss that can be rooted in the golden role, the maturity and the capacity to step outside self and really look at the platinum role and really question and start to have those conversations. And I would love to hear from you. It's throughout the book, but it's a piece that really kind of stuck out to me. And it in my mind relates to the golden and platinum role in some ways, this places of sexual harmony and

Ailey Jolie (18:36.114)

actually asking those questions of what do you really want? What does sexual connection look like to you? And I really loved how you have woven sexuality just so neatly and gracefully into your work without it overtaking the whole body of the work, but it's just so beautifully interwoven in. So I would love to hear from you just about sexual harmony, how you define it.

breaking apart some of sexual chemistry because again, I find that piece of your work could be really helpful for the listener. Sure. So the sexual chemistry, as I see it, I'm a very visual person. If you think sexual chemistry is that sharp orange color, sexual harmony is a rainbow, has more depth. It can be created and recreated over and over again.

Sexual chemistry is wonderful if you have it with somebody, but usually that leads to really cool, wonderful, adventurous, whatever that you want to call it, experiences. Sexual harmony is when you want to build something over time. So it's like renewable. It's I play a tune, you play a tune, I listen to you, you listen to me. So we actually co-create something with each other. And we are never bored because there's so many varieties with that melody that we can create.

But with sexual chemistry, when it fizzles out, which it will over time, because it's a physiological fact, right? So when it fizzles out over time throughout the course of a relationship, and we have research to show that maybe on average two years it lasts and some other people say two and a half or three years. So there are different research around it. Then we are left cold and we are thinking that I love you, but I'm not in love with you.

And what it means is that I don't have that spark. I don't have that desire to come. So desire is replaced with attraction. Sexual chemistry is the desire piece, right? Fleeting. And then the sexual harmony is based on attraction, renewable energy that you have. So that's the best way I can describe it. How do you define attraction? Cause I know that your definition is different than how it's commonly conceptualized.

Ailey Jolie (20:57.422)

It's got more nuance in it. So the one-liner definition is attraction is why do you want to be around somebody or something? Why were attracted to be around something or someone? So that's the meaning of it. Now, as it relates to couples and any kind of relationship. And when I talk about the love by design, many people think I'm only talking about couples, know, two plus, you know, like people coming together.

But I teach the same principles to corporate. I teach the same principles to the leaders, to the parents. It's really the same thing, if you really look at it. So with attraction, why do you apply for a certain job and not the other? Right? There is a reason we are attracted. It could be financial, it could be social, with relationships as well. I'm attracted to a person because of the intellectual capacities, because of the finances, social status.

because they have something that I always wanted or now at this moment in time I want, or they have something that I feel like I'm familiar with. This is the blueprint of default that I'm coming from. So there's always a reason attraction is socio-culturally constructed. That is the difference between that and, you know, the other ways that people define it. There are certain components that a lot of researchers agree over.

So for example, one of them is proximity, the person that you are exposed to a lot of times, it will bring that sense of familiarity and then you feel like close, that feeling of safety. Then you start maybe sharing some interest and some experiences with each other that will help with the attraction. The other piece that I want to talk about here is the reciprocity of liking that we have in social psychology. It's important because when couples come to us,

majority of times when they say I don't like him anymore or for example they say I love them but I'm not in love with them it goes back or the sexuality is fizzled over time is because they don't like each other actually or even if they do they stopped showing it with the principle of reciprocity of liking ease if I come here and I'm pleasant to you in every interaction I compliment you I say ailey this ailey that

Ailey Jolie (23:24.938)

You know for a fact that I like you, over a period of time you start liking me back. But over a course of a life of a couple, with different things that life throws at us, right? We stop communicating with each other in that way. We shorten our gazes. We don't look at each other with that sense of kindness and warmth and compassion. We don't interact with each other beyond the practicalities. Did you buy the milk? Did you do that?

Did you fill up the tank? You know, we stop doing things that shows the other person that we are into them. We like them. Then of course it will go cold and cold and cold. And then they stop liking us back. And then we expect to love each other, which is a foreign concept to me. You know, so that goes first.

In what ways do you suggest that people could start to notice when the liking starts to disappear? What are some maybe amber lights that kind of could alert someone to like actually the like in this relationship is starting to be eroded? For me, the first thing is the lack of it, lack of touch, lack of, and all of these six ingredients are intertwined, right?

So lack of touch, lack of tenderness, you feel like you're curt with each other, or you just keep it to the practicalities. You don't want to spend as much time with each other or your energy is completely diverted elsewhere. And I'm not talking about different phases of life that actually demands that, like a newborn, like caring for elderly parents or going through a rough patch. No, I'm not talking about those, but in general, you're

You think to yourself, I feel empty. I feel a void. I feel lonely in this relationship. And when they look at you, it's not a look of compassion and love. It's look of like annoyed or short gaze to show you did something wrong or they're stealing their looks from you. talking about different cultures, looking into somebody's eyes,

Ailey Jolie (25:41.218)

doesn't have the same meaning as it has here. But even within those cultures that you don't directly communicate through your eye gaze, you can tell by the energy that the person occupies around you. So they're always occupied with something else. They are immersed in their phone. And even if, you know, when you're talking in an appropriated space that was carved for the couple, then you're dating, you're walking together.

you know, you're sharing a meal together, they prefer to be on their phone rather than, looking up and engaging with you. So basically, they don't want to be there. So that's what you notice. When you say they don't want to be there, where my mind goes is just the level of also embodiment it takes to notice that your partner isn't there anymore, or that you are also not there anymore, because you can go through the motions of

what love looks like or liking looks like and yet be completely disconnected. And I'm curious to hear from you how someone kind of comes back into themself enough to maybe notice the like or the love isn't here. So the like is, you know, all of those things that I talked about, loving behavior, which is another component in the book, another ingredient.

It has a very specific definition for me based on the work that we've done. So tenderness is a big part of it. Tenderness with words, with touch, with energy, with everything in every interaction, tenderness is a big part of it. So when it's not there, when it becomes harsh and, you know, sarcastic and snarky and the compliments become too general or nonexistent or about something that you don't even care about, but the other person, you know,

I hear that from a lot of couples with sexual issues. For example, I'm cooking in the kitchen, my partner comes and grabs my derriere. And that's not what I'm attracted to at this moment in time. Please don't do that. And then the other person says, what's wrong with you? I'm just showing that I'm still attracted to you. So the tenderness is missing there, right? So that piece of faith, listening to the other person.

Ailey Jolie (28:01.998)

And then making the other person feel special and celebrated on a daily basis, little doses, little doses. Feeling special is, you know exactly how I like my coffee after 11 years being together, you know? So if after 11 years you come and ask me, Sarah, do you want sugar in your coffee? Like, are you serious right now? I never have sugar in my coffee and I have those couples and I'm sure you see them as well. Did you know like,

the partner is not even listening. So that doesn't make me feel special. So that feeling of special going out of your way, giving benefit of the doubt. These are the elements for the loving. So when they are not there over a period of time, and they are the majority of times, then you check in with yourself. When you say self awareness, one of the things that happen is you can catch yourself thinking about your partner, yourself and the relationship, the stories that you tell yourself.

Right? They're not as positive. You're preoccupied. Is this the right person? Am I in the wrong place at this moment in time? Do I prefer to be somewhere else? What is happening with my life? This is not what I envisioned. So when you hear yourself having those monologues with yourself, about yourself, the other person, and the partnership, those are the initial hints that anybody can think about. And they're like, oh, maybe there's something going on.

And as you're speaking, what's going through my mind is just the really strong, somatic experience of what sexual chemistry or sexual last can feel like. And especially if we've been in a relationship that maybe is lacking that or deeply disconnected, how enticing that body based experience can be. And I would love to hear from you, how you conceptualize and define like that sexual chemistry in the body and how,

I love how you take a different stance of it not being something we can rekindle, which I know you touched on earlier, but I would love to hear more about sexual chemistry, how it shows up in the body, how it might entice us away from relationships more more compatible in, and how rekindling is maybe really the wrong word. So there's four little questions in that question for you. Lovely. I'll try to get to them if I forget. Wonderful. So sexual chemistry.

Ailey Jolie (30:30.442)

The way that it feels is, imagine it this way, it's an excitation of the nervous system, agitation or excitation of the nervous system. What it does is it's a precursor to having a very interesting sexual experience. For some people, by the way, they have that, but then when they go to the sexual experience, they actually get disappointed. So it doesn't always translate to a dangling from chandelier, fun sex, right? But many people think that.

But the agitation of the nervous system, if we are familiar with it, being in the body and imagining that, those people call it butterflies, people call it tingling sensation, people say my breathing change, my heart goes faster. Those are all signs that my nervous system is actually pretty excited or agitated around this person. Maybe in parenthesis also I add,

people who are taking any kind of medication, even some of the over-the-counter medications, or they are in specific cycle of the monthly cycle for women, or they are after menopause, so hormones have a big part in this, they might actually feel sexual chemistry and the way it shows up in the body differently, or people who transitioned between genders, so between sexes, they might actually feel it differently.

which is, you know, they just need to know what body they occupy and then how it shows up in different circumstances when the nervous system is agitated. So that is sexual chemistry. Some people, again, you know, they go after sequential relationships. They have really good experiences, but they're not looking to build something with someone. That's perfect.

But if you're looking to build something with someone that can't be the only thing that you're looking for. And as a matter of fact, it's going to mask a lot of things because brain is actually the preferential part of the brain. That's and also the decision making part of the brain is going to be dismantled, really genuinely dismantled with that sort of agitation. It's like, you know how you're nervous, you pass a red light.

Ailey Jolie (32:53.238)

Under no circumstance in the sober mind you do that, right? Hopefully not. So these are the things that, know, if you are, let's say for example, you drank a little bit, you are relying on substances a little bit, vaping included, weed included, you know, all of these things that, you know, like meddling with the brain capacity and coping capacity, they all can impact the way that we view the other person.

And sexual chemistry, feeling sexual chemistry with somebody, that agitation is no different. So we actually see them through a different lens. So that is the biggest difference between sexual chemistry and what we are trying to build. Do you feel like that psycho education that you just provided right now actually supports people in your clinical experience from getting enticed into it when maybe they have been in a relationship

that allowed them to just have like a really regulated or even maybe down-regulated nervous system. Does the nervous system education really slow people down or maybe it's just so strong that the psychoeducation doesn't help as much? For some people it does, I have to say. For some people if they have the patience and the will and if the vision for life is to make it work with this person, yes, it works. I've seen it work and

But you can't rekindle something that has never been there, one. You can't rekindle a chemical impact. And I always give people that experience that, you know, in Iran, we did our experiments on third grade. So they brought the baking soda and everything else. And then we did the volcanic thing. And I remember specifically, I actually tried to recreate it. I couldn't because once the chemistry is done, it's done.

But with the nervous system, the good news with the sexuality and nervous system is you can bring excitement to the nervous system. That we can do. Not rekindling, but we can bring excitement. So for example, research shows that if a couple who would like to have an exciting sexual experience with one another, if they go through an adrenaline rush situation together, some of my couples watch horror movies, for example.

Ailey Jolie (35:17.784)

they can create that sort of agitation for the nervous system. And then they channel that to go and create an interesting and exciting sexual experience with one another, physical experience with one another. Some people go to roller coaster excitement. Some people go to escape rooms, whatever your thing is. Why do you think as a culture, and speaking more of Western cultures and also Europe, we've become so obsessed with kind of chasing that

peak experience, I commonly call it peak experience of sexual chemistry.

the stories that we were told. Also, we always want more and better and bigger, especially Northern America. It's just, you know, the motto goes, I only live one life. I want to live a full life and define that full life. You cannot possibly go like this with your agitation of your nervous system forever. That's why also the rate of burnout.

is much higher in our countries all around. know, like countries meaning like Northern America. Western Europe is following, unfortunately, but Northern America still holds the flag in burnout. So that's one of the reasons, because we are constantly in the chase, and chase comes with high cortisol level, with high, that agitation of the nervous system.

What do you feel like helps the people that you have supported actually come out of that high nervous system area? Do you feel like the psychoeducation really gets it or are there other practices that you kind of sprinkle in there? That's deeply why I love somatics and embodiment, because I find that that's one way where there's actually a felt experience that people can start to tap into something different that's not an agitated nervous system. So I'd love to hear from you how you support people in that process.

Ailey Jolie (37:16.268)

Sure. You know, how many years ago was it that I was working in Silicon Valley and then I realized that, you know, there are many intelligent, like a concentration of very intelligent left brain people in Silicon Valley. It's pretty like an obvious to many people. And then I learned that talk therapy can only go so far. Like psychoeducation is wonderful because, you know, you have the literacy.

But with Somatica, with process therapy, we actually teach people how to be fluent. And I give you another example. Some people come to me and say, teach me how to be great in the work environment, how to shake hands, how to eye contact, you know, I can teach you that. But what if that you are shaking hands and your hand that is shaking properly and wonderfully and perfectly is sweaty? Then what? You know, so we need to actually address it.

body out rather than out in. So there's a huge difference between literacy and fluency. To answer your question, psychoeducation has its place, it's very valuable, and it works for people who have to have the information with their learning style, because people have different learning styles, right? And then from there, we need to find a way as practitioners to help them to really go in and be fluent in it. So next time when I'm not there,

whispering in their ears in a situation, they can actually show up for themselves and their body and their tools that they gained, that can actually carry them through that scenario. So that's the somatic piece of it. Can you speak a little bit to your experience working cross-culturally and the fluency that you notice and how the fluency might be different in different places?

That's a very good question. I would say the manifestation of different ingredients will be different, right, across cultures. So let's say cultures define what? The way that the norms are defined. In any macro culture is the social cultural, political, whatever that we are exposed to through social media, movies that we watch, whatever that is, right? And then it comes to the coupled culture.

Ailey Jolie (39:37.314)

What is the culture that this couple has? I think it's important, regardless of the culture of, you know, macro, the micro culture within that couple, what is it that we're dealing with? The language they use for one another. So a lot of people speak with their second languages these days with one another. So that creates a degree of separation, sometimes degree of eloquency, sometimes degree of hinder, hindering the...

relationship. that's not what I mean. Quite because the nuances, right? So but in different cultures, if you want to talk about them, let's go after which one? Respect. Some people in certain cultures might think respect is being obedient, following with closed eyes and no questions asked. But respect, if we really go back to the roots of it, as I mentioned earlier, is to see and to see again.

So by redefining all of these at the root, regardless of the culture, I think we can liberate people to create their own culture within a couple of them. That's my hope with doing this. Regardless of where you're coming from, because respect is not just blindfold yourself and just follow the other person, right? Or for example, with shared vision, I define compromise and negotiation and sacrifice.

A lot of people coming from religious doctrines or cultural background that say, what are you talking about? Sacrifice is the first to go in any couple of them. That's actually not the case because sacrifice most often, if it's not done intentionally, leads to resentments. And negotiation is the first place to go. Then compromise if you have to go to

So these are the things that, when you say culturally, I think we need to first realize what is it that we think about all of these ingredients, key ingredients, and then try to define it and redefine it within the couple of them, which is a dynamic process. Absolutely. I love how you really bring in examining what we've internalized, what our internal scripts and stories, and then that next place of like,

Ailey Jolie (41:57.452)

What does that actually mean? How do we embody something different? And that piece of kind of the interdependence or emergent space of like, what is our shared language? And I would love to hear from you how you support people in finding a shared language or actually understanding, okay, what does sacrifice mean to you and me? And that kind of messy process, because that can be really tricky to go back and...

really ask ourselves and the people we are in relationship with, what do these really basic or common words genuinely mean to you? I find that when we give people examples, it will help them a lot. So, for example, if I want to help a couple do this, I ask them to talk about, you know, how do you define negotiation, compromise and sacrifice? And then there and then they hear each other talk.

that here is what I think and I ask them what is necessary. Have you done that in your relationship? And a lot of people say, what are you talking about? Negotiation is like a transactional thing. It's like for anybody who is surprised by that language, I have to break it to you, my love. Relationships are exchanges. We have another principle in social psychology called social exchange theory.

As humans, our main goal in life is not to be altruistic, is to preserve safety of life for ourselves, then other people around us. Then we learn based on our beliefs and morals and values to not to be so self-centered and actually give to others and maybe, yes, sacrifice ourselves for others. But as long as you have the intentionality piece behind it and you realize that in any relationship, even now,

between the two of us. There is always currencies at play, right? So we can't just put our head under the sand. There's always currencies. And as long as these currencies are balanced and in a way not fair or equal, but equitable, then we are having a relationship with a base to be thriving. So does that make sense?

Ailey Jolie (44:18.83)

Absolutely, it does make sense. And I love that you brought in that theory piece there and really destigmatized kind of the idea that relationships are, I'm using a different word, but transactional because oftentimes transactional relationships are so shamed or judged or they shouldn't be that, but the language of currency and it being equitable, I think is a really beautiful way of asking yourself, what am I giving and what am I getting? Yeah.

And as long as it's equitable and also everybody involved contributes to that third entity, one plus one equals three. And then that relationship gives back, then we give to each other. So it's all an evolving process. Absolutely. Thank you so much for your research and your time. It was really lovely to get to spend some time with you and kind of poke at your material and hear more from you.

I wanted to know if you have anything coming up in the next three to six months that you would love the listener to know about, the links for your book will be below so people will be able to find that. But if there's anything else you specifically are doing? Well, if people want to really receive deeper information from literacy to fluency about the core concepts of any relational spaces,

I invite everyone to join my newsletter, which is called The Common Ground on Substack. And book, you mentioned that, you know, it's everywhere, Kindle, audio everywhere, it's global. The paperback is coming on February 6 in North America. And I'm going to be with my mentors of long time, like mentors meaning I look up to them, the Gutmans.

We're going to actually present at in Bloom 2025 in Vancouver. So that is exciting. Psychotherapy network is coming. If there is any colleague who is listening, I will be there in Washington DC teaching this coming. And there are lots, there are lots of things that are coming and I look forward to talk to anyone who is willing to talk and really change their mentality around.

Ailey Jolie (46:37.39)

how we experience and express love. And I truly believe that we can create world peace, one relationship at a time. I'm so happy you said that, because I was going to ask you to share what your mission is, because I've heard you say this on previous podcasts. And I just absolutely adored how deeply you embody that throughout all of your work. It's just like such a beautiful thread that I can see just so clearly.

Thank you for wanting to change the world through supporting people to have relationships that actually will allow world peace or a more equitable world to be possible for us all. I really appreciate you. Of course, I appreciate you and thank you for being the part of this mission.

Ailey Jolie (47:31.094)

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