Ep 30 with dawn mauricio.

Ailey Jolie (00:06.264)

Welcome to In This Body, podcast where we dive deep into the potent power of embodiment. I'm your host, Ailee Jolie, a psychotherapist deeply passionate about living life fully from the wisdom within your very own body. The podcast In This Body is a love letter to embodiment.

podcast dedicated to asking important questions like how does connecting to your body change your life? How does connecting to your body enhance your capacity to love more deeply and live more authentically? And how can collective embodiment alter the course of our shared world? Join me for consciously curated conversations with leading experts. Each episode is intended to support you in reconnecting to your very own body.

This podcast will be available for free wherever you get your podcast, making it easy for you to stay connected to In This Body, the podcast with me, Ailee Jolie.

Welcome back to another episode of In This Body. Today, have the honor to sit with someone who has personally inspired myself into deeper embodiment, Don Mauricio. I first met Don at a somatic experiencing event in Montreal, and her mere presence and intentionality with words inspired me to embark on my own silent meditation retreat experiences.

retreats that have been transformative in my own life. Dawn is a dedicated insight meditation teacher and has cultivated a life on intentional simplicity and deep listening, guiding others through their paths at esteemed venues like Spirit Rock, True North Insight, and Insight LA. With her unique blend of Buddhist meditation, mindfulness, and somatic practices, Dawn enriches the meditation experience, emphasizing inclusivity and accessibility, particularly for BIPOC.

Ailey Jolie (01:50.507)

practitioners. Don, thank you for joining us today on In This Body, the podcast with me, Ailee Jolie.

Ailey Jolie (02:02.837)

On the first question I have for you today is a question I started asking all my guests and I would love to hear from you. What does being in your body mean to you? I love this question because it means so much to me or it feels as if like being in my body has been my saving grace kind of thing. And it's almost like I don't know where I'd be if I wasn't, if I didn't have this contact with my body. And so being in my body personally means

just a place where I can come home to. It's like a place where I can take refuge, especially when I feel pulled out by so much stimulation or so many opinions, especially if I've been scrolling or something like that. And then I might feel like I've lost myself. If I take a moment and pause, when I can touch into my body, then I can tune into what is true for me. And...

It doesn't have to be super clear, like you have this exact opinion and now you can write like a medium article about it. It could be as simple as like, like or don't like, and then go from there. But then at the same time, it's just also like a place where I can rest. So it's not just a place where I can touch into what is true for me, maybe what feels wise as well, but it could be a place for rest. I totally get caught in like all this thinking or I can...

be walking down the street and texting on my phone, but then feeling frazzled and not know why. But then if I just remind myself of maybe the sun that I feel on my skin, cold wind, because it's winter right now in Montreal, or just the act of walking, that in and of itself gives a refuge for my mind. And it just is a nice place to rest as well.

So those are a few things. I love that piece at the end that you said there that your body gives refuge to your mind. And the reason why you're on this podcast or the reason why I know you for the listener who doesn't know, I know I've told this to Dawn before, is when I first met you in the somatic experiencing beginner one in Montreal, there was something so peaceful about the way that I noticed you acted in regards to like, just how you like held the cup.

Ailey Jolie (04:22.092)

And it was these simple movements that had such intentionality that I was like, I need to talk to this person. And then you opened your mouth and you started speaking. And I, that point, had a deep yoga practice, but I had never heard of insight meditation. The idea of going to silent meditation retreat didn't really interest me. I was pretty deep in the psychedelic world. And I would love to hear from you. A, the first part is what led you to meditation and the insight meditation practice.

And also, I then will kind of, you know, sparkling a little questions in there, ask about how meditation and embodiment go together. Because that is the thing I really wanted to hear you speak about. Because it's often not spoken about, or even as a clinician, I noticed I'm trying to kind of pick apart some misconceptions that the body actually can be a refuge for our mind if I use your word. So I'll start with how you got here. Yeah.

I would say, you know, just like the very short answer is followed. I followed the green lights. And so I was backpacking. It was my quarter life crisis. was backpacking through Southeast Asia. It was my first trip alone being so far, all of the ingredients for being miserable. No cell phones around. It was the time of internet cafes and stuff like that. So I felt pretty far.

from everything that I knew and that brought me comfort. And I remember it was on a bus from Bangkok and going to Phnom Penh. And I met somebody who was just crying the whole time actually. And she was also really homesick. And we exchanged only a few words and I ran into her a few weeks later and she seemed like a completely different person when I was still kind of stewing in my homesickness.

And I asked her kind of desperately, like, what did you do? And she said, overpasana. And it was just so like, as if I was supposed to know what that meant. But then after talking to her, was just being in the present moment for her is what helped her let go of just all of the things she was really missing to a point where it was just like making her miserable. And so that was like a seed planted. But then the rest of that trip, there were other seeds being planted. I remember

Ailey Jolie (06:39.882)

I was at a hostel and I picked up just like a random magazine and there was this article about some tech person who gave up his job and just was meditating full time and it was Vipassana. And then it was, and then I was like, okay, universe. Then the next day I met somebody who just came out of a Vipassana retreat and I was like, fine, I give up. Like, I'm not going to avoid it anymore. And then he gave me the name of his teacher and that's where I first practiced on a monastery in Northern Thailand.

So it was kind of by happenstance, but not really. think I was open enough to see those messages or see all of the clues. And I often think that if it was the time of smartphones, I probably wouldn't have picked up on any of those. And so I'm so grateful for all of the conditions that led to that, because it's definitely been life-changing.

Yeah, so that was about 20 years ago or so. And it's been my, what I say is it's been my longest relationship. Not always smooth, but definitely very consistent and stable. Could you explain what Vipassana is and not only explain it, but compare and contrast it?

to the type of meditation that you teach now? So basically Vipassana is the Pali word to describe a style of meditation. And it's often translated as insight meditation. I much prefer some of the French translations. So being in Montreal, I also hear some of the French teachings. And one of my friends and teachers, Pascal Eau Claire, I've heard him describe Vipassana to mean vision claire or clear seeing.

And so that's what I much prefer that because insight sometimes feels like, I'm supposed to get something. I'm supposed to have an insight. And then it could throw us already goal oriented people into more goal orientation. When clear seeing it's more immediate. It's just like, can I see this moment clearly? It doesn't mean getting rid of my opinions or preferences, but to also recognize that my opinions and preferences are coloring this moment and all of that.

Ailey Jolie (08:48.169)

that awareness leads to the clear seeing. And so that's what I teach. I teach insight meditation as well as mindfulness meditation. And mindfulness meditation would be, I'd say more the techniques. it's a lot, it's secular and it's more say immediate. The way that I see it though is that mindfulness is a beautiful doorway into these vast, this vast path of practice, but it's really the doorway in. It's not

the be all and end all, although you can live a satisfactory life just being mindful, but it's often focused more on ourselves. It's kind of like, I wanna stress better, I wanna sleep better, I wanna know what to do with my anxiety. When we step onto the path of the Buddhist meditation or Vipassana, it begins to open up to deeper things and maybe more...

at least in the Buddhist teachings, it can be referred to as like the universal truths, kind of like something as simple as when I'm separated from what I want, I'll suffer. And that's the teaching of Dukkha or suffering. And so we start touching into those things, which can begin to really widen our perspective. And I think also really allow room for us to hold paradox and nuance, which

I feel like we really need as a society as we slip into more black or white thinking and divisiveness. I'm going to ask a clarifying question that's in my mind. I've spent all of my silent meditation retreats have been associated to the Insight Meditation Society. And my experiences there have always been with teachers who have been very conscious of the body, very conscious of...

trauma in the body, processing the body, having space in the setting and in the container for some element of movement, let that be what it needs to be. And I haven't gone and done a traditional 10-day Vipassana for the reason that I've heard so many stories of the rigidity that's present. And I would love to hear, even though they are similar and you're using the terms interchangeably, I don't have the experience of a 10-day rigid Vipassana.

Ailey Jolie (11:07.103)

doesn't really interest me with how I know my body is. What is the difference between the two or how did they start to diverge for someone who's maybe only heard of the vipassana and thinks of that rigid structure when there is this like really beautiful, juicy other thing over here? I am so happy you asked because I think sometimes when we can reduce a whole lineage down to maybe one way that it is being taught.

it's really robbing others from experiencing the richness of it. And so for example, I suspect when you're, what you're referring to are the Goanca retreats. And the Goanca retreats are named, or Esen Goanca was, who's now deceased, but was a meditation teacher. And he was really good at creating the style of retreat or this format of retreat that was very easily replicable.

And so now there are like hundreds of centers across the world. And that style of teaching or format, that Gawainka style, it's almost like saying Ashtanga yoga, when Vipassana is yoga or Hatha yoga. So it's like more of an umbrella term, Vipassana, which can include many techniques and approaches. For example, there's the saying that there are 84,000 doorways into the Dharma. And so what I like to think is that

Under this umbrella of Vipassana, there are 84,000 doorways into the practice. And S. N. Govanka style is one of those ways. However, because it's so popular, it can easily be used as a blanket term for all retreats. And so when people find out that I teach retreats, and then when I say I teach Vipassana retreats, some of them kind of like back up and don't talk to me for the rest of the night. And I think it might be because of that.

But that's not the style, at least certainly when I am in the teacher seat. Partly because I needed a lot of adapting. I've really grown to incorporate trauma-sensitive instructions or permissions in the teachings or in the way that I hold retreat space. And so, which is not always the case with every teacher or not always possible when it's so formalized.

Ailey Jolie (13:30.731)

from what I hear from GoBiCa retreats, but I don't have my personal experience with that format. How do you incorporate the trauma informed or trauma sensitivity into meditation? Because I have had experiences where going on a silent meditation retreat was the most yummiest, juiciest, but also darkest and best thing I could have done for my trauma reprocessing. And it came back and I was like, I'm so much more integrated.

I understand these parts, we've all been able to sit together. Great. And then if I had experiences where I come out, I am the most fragmented shell of a human and as my therapist like right now, and she was like, don't go back for a long time. know? Exactly. I'm curious to hear from you how you do structured meditation to be more trauma sensitive or trauma informed as a teacher. Well, first is I don't.

I used to do this, but then as I developed my own practice and then as I went deeper into my own practice, more stuff would come up and I needed more adjustment personally. I stopped telling people, you should do a retreat as if the retreat is somehow what we have to be striving for. And retreat settings are not appropriate for everyone.

For example, we could be holding a lot, whether we identify with that we have trauma in our history or not, there's just a lot we could be holding. so for example, someone who experienced like a really big loss or is going through a divorce, sometimes all of that quietness and that silence could be really triggering or activating for people. And so yeah, I don't say that it's for everybody.

When people do find their way on retreats, if they got the okay from their therapist or whatnot, we still don't know what will come up. so I really just try to give as many options as possible and normalize that it's okay. Because I think we can sometimes think that if we have to adjust our practice that we failed somehow. And some of the ways that I encourage people to adjust is you might need to lie down.

Ailey Jolie (15:46.121)

you might not need to come into the meditation hall every time there's a session. Just because for you, it might be more supportive to sit outside and look up at the sky. Or if we don't know that we're going to get activated in the middle of a meditation, we do get activated. But we're stuck in this room with like 40 other people kind of thing.

Then open your eyes, look around, look out the window are some of the things that I suggest for people. Yeah, and then also just like a lot of permission that ultimately I have no idea what would be most supportive for you or the practitioner. And so the way that I really try and frame it is to all of it is allowed and welcome and it's part of this experiment.

And instead, can we hold this question of what would serve my presence or what would serve my mindfulness? And so for example, if I'm in a meditation in a room full of people and I feel like there's a lot of agitation, I might remember, okay, I'm allowed to open my eyes, but I don't want to. And so what if we force ourselves to keep our eyes closed? How does that serve our mindfulness? Does it lead to more agitation? Does it lead to a deeper quality of attention?

And so maybe after a few seconds, we realized that was a bad choice. So then we do open our eyes and then we also notice what that does. And then maybe that does ease us, but then we're like stuck on like observing people really closely. Then we go back into comparing mind or something. that's, you know, so then that might be a clue to let's try closing the eyes again or focus on the window instead. You know, so every moment is this opportunity to

Just like add data to the grand old experiment of what would serve our quality of attention. I love the element of compassionate curiosity in those questions you gave. And before COVID, I spent about two months in silence. And then it was like deeply like, whoosh, as it is for probably everyone. I'll bracket them, that over there.

Ailey Jolie (17:49.615)

And then last year I went back into a retreat, an inside retreat with my partner and about a day five I hit the vortex that I'd hit at the two months. And for about a day I was struggling and he could just see that I was like in pain, even though we weren't, you know, allowed to talk. And he pulled me aside and he asked me, you don't have to actually bring your attention to this. And just as that like invitation. And then when I went inside, I was like, actually I don't need to.

I don't need to and I stayed a little bit longer and then I asked to leave and it was the most healing thing for my sense of awareness and presence to be like actually in this present moment this level of attention around the information my body is bringing to me because I put my focus there is too much. And so I'm gonna put my attention.

over here, over here, and practice presence because this is too much for my mind to find refuge in my body. My body is becoming a hostile place. And I then kind of went out, cause I was like, do people leave silent meditation retreats? Like who does this? You know, here I am months later on Reddit, like, and I would love to hear from you as a teacher, how you hold that experience when you can see someone is like,

really struggling and I know I was able to do that because I had a supportive partner who was attuned enough to be like, oh, this is a little rough and he knew. But as a teacher, how you hold that space or what are some signs for people to maybe go, yeah, meditating isn't the best thing for me or the silent retreat is becoming too much and I should ask for help. I didn't ask for a lot of help during my two months and I know that was my downfall.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that you're also just describing titration, which is a technique that we also really offer to students who do feel a lot of activation or agitation in their system, meaning that like sometimes what we're focusing on or what is coming up can feel really big and overwhelming. And then sometimes we think that we're supposed to keep our attention on it no matter what. And it's a little bit of this like

Ailey Jolie (20:06.023)

powering through mentality that I think a lot of us have. But then closing the eyes or looking out the window just to ease the system can be enough of a break to meet what's there the next time it comes or not, as you were describing. And so what we do on the retreats that I teach, there are a lot of support systems. Like you can write a note to either the manager. At some retreat centers, we have what's called the retreat support.

associate and so if you need to go on a walk and talk something through, they're there. You can meet with a teacher one-on-one just to be like, I'm kind of freaking out, this is what's coming up. And in the case where I actually meet with a student, I'll often offer suggestions on how to adjust their practice, which is kind of like just like energy adjustment, just like maybe focus your awareness here, go for longer walks, something like that. For example, on one of my long retreats, I was like,

totally freaking out. And my teacher said, don't do the walking meditation, run, just run instead. And I'm not a runner. And I remember that first day I ran 15 kilometers and I only stopped because my body was just like, what are you doing? This is not what we're trained for. But I ran every day of that retreat because there's just so much coming up for me. Anyways,

And so, there are these options of just like working with the body so that maybe you create a container to be able to stay. However, it's not always possible and the goal isn't to stay. And so I don't want anyone to come away from this podcast to think, actually, I just have to stay and it's about finding the right way. That's not true. For some, once you check in with the teacher, like say I meet with somebody and I say like tweak this, tweak that.

If the next day they're still freaking out, then we might be starting to consider, okay, so do you have a place to go to? Are you able to go home? Because summer retreat centers are in remote locations as well. So just checking in with all of those things. And then sometimes what I do tell people is if you really need to ease off and focus more on rest instead, do that here. If they can't go home or they don't have a place to go to or a way to get there, often tell them like, just rest here.

Ailey Jolie (22:24.763)

And that in and of itself is that compassionate curiosity. And I often tell people, you can come to some of the talks. This is one of the places where your food will be made at certain times. So instead, your practice might be just receiving care, which is another thing I think that our society isn't always good at. So those are some of the things that I, when I am met with students who are having trouble adjusting, but I don't ever want people to feel like they're trapped.

and they have to stay there because that usually exacerbates the agitation or activation that they're feeling. But I also don't want to be like, sure, at the first sign, no problem, go home. But it's like this in between that we try to walk. Absolutely. Yeah, there's a different quality to the, don't want to be here because this is uncomfortable and there's so many other things I could be doing and I don't really like what's going through my mind and da, da, da, da.

I can't grasp reality anymore because what is coming up is so big and has so much energy that it's pulling me in with such a velocity that I can't actually find my inner voice anymore. And that was totally my experience. was like, actually need to use my voice so I can remember who I am in this present moment, not what is still living in my body that I'm so grateful this practice has brought up, but I need more support to process those pieces.

Totally. Some of the ways that I describe it is like, if we were this big pot of boiling water with a lid on top and that what was happening inside was boiling so much that the lid was clanging, that's a sign of like, it's too much. For me, it manifested as like uncontrollable or crying or just like for no reason, I was crying all the time on a particular retreat.

and I could barely catch my breath. And then it was also a little like a lot of energy and almost like manic pacing. Now I can see it for what it was, but in that moment, I had no idea. And so it was so helpful to be able to check in with the teachers basically around it. I would love to hear from you because you did mention it briefly that titration. What has been your path of, I wouldn't actually say transition, even though that's word that's coming to my mind. Maybe there is a little bit of transition there, but the integration of

Ailey Jolie (24:51.865)

insight meditation and somatic experiencing. How do you see them as being complimentary or different in some ways and what has been your process of bringing those two together? So what's so interesting is that I didn't really know how supportive or complimentary meditation was for somatic experiencing until I got more into SE. But it's like the same thing almost. It's just I spend so much time in my body through my mindfulness practice.

actually we should circle back to that question from earlier about how the two are different. But basically I would spend so much time in my body and kind of listen in for just like clues. Like the example I gave earlier, just as something as simple as like or dislike. And then have that inform maybe my choices or how I might respond. And of course I don't always get it right the same, right right away.

But that's just kind of like how I spent a lot of time in my body already. What I didn't do and what I love about SE is that it would just kind of give me a lot more time and space to be with say a certain sensation and really follow the trail from there. So I could, I don't know, like sometimes I would show up to my SE sessions with my practitioner and not really have anything or I thought I didn't really have anything to bother some to work with.

but there was maybe a little hint of it. Then when we would follow the sensations and the trail of where my body would take me in regards to that challenge or issue, it was incredible how unpredictable the path would be. I would never be able to say, by the end of the session, that's where I'll end up. It was just really dictated by my body and just the releases I felt from just spending time.

with certain sensations and tuning into what they might be trying to tell me or what message it had for me. And so in that sense, I find that they're so complimentary because it's just like, there's the meditation and then I feel like SC takes it in a different route, but also deeper in a different way. But one thing that I'm realizing as well, as I'm starting to work with people and they're right now mostly meditators, is how with meditation,

Ailey Jolie (27:14.437)

we have these conditioned responses. And so I'm trying to get my meditation clients to not be so conditioned. For example, if there's something challenging, they'll put their hand to their heart almost right away. And that's like something that I don't know why, but we do a lot in the wellness space. And so I have to stop them and I'll be like, was that a conditioned response or was that, know, did that really come from inside the body?

And or sometimes when we start with just a settling, they'll close their eyes right away. And I'm like, wait, wait. But in SE, your settling could be drinking water, looking out the window. You know, what does your body actually want instead of what you have been programmed to always do? So that's the interesting part that I'm also coming into contact with when it comes to like how the two can support each other, but also how, how maybe a deep meditation practice can hinder or get in the way a little bit of our SE work.

because we're already on the cusp of it. If I bring us back to that question at the start of what is kind of the difference between meditation or mindfulness based practice and embodied? Yeah. So for me, and you know, right now I'm just scanning, would any of my peers disagree? Maybe my meditation peers, perhaps. But for me,

Meditation is a completely embodied experience. A big misunderstanding is that it's about the mind. And I understand why that's about the, why that's a misunderstanding because other modalities might say the goal of meditation is to have a blank slate, to not think of anything. And I wouldn't say that that's true.

at least in the lineage or the style that I teach. And so I think with messages like that out there, it's easy to think that it's about the mind. And I do have to admit that we are using the mind to train the mind. So it can be this imperfect training. But in Pali, the language in which the Buddhist teachings were written, the word for heart is the same for mind. And so I like to alternate between heart-mind.

Ailey Jolie (29:28.523)

And so in that sense, it's really this, or it's starting to invite us down from the head to the heart and into the body. So even when we do something like being mindful of our breath, there are some instructions out there to, when the breath is long, to know that the breath is long. When the breath is short, know that it's short. And we might get caught in the no part, like know that it's long, know that it's short, that keeps us in the head.

But I think the way that we know whether a breath is long or short is how much did my body expand or contract? How long was it? And so it's by really paying attention to the sensations, the embodiment of breathing. Or one of my favorite ways to be mindful of my thoughts is to treat it like it's this present moment object or phenomena. Like sometimes we can use sound as an object for meditation.

and how there could be like suddenly a bird singing or construction noises outside my window. That's a present moment phenomena. And in the same way, a thought is too, because even if the content of the thought is based in the past or in the future, it's actually arising right now, the thought itself. And so one of my favorite ways to be with the thought is, okay, like I would my breath or a sound that's happening in the moment, what is happening now as I think this thought? there's

contraction in my body, there's heat rising. In the thought, I could be angry, but what's present now is actually sadness. And so to be with what is in this moment with the thought, and that's through the body. And so it's not really about the mind, you know, or sometimes even there could be like loving kindness phrases. So sometimes people use phrases to meditate. That can get us in the head, but...

It's not the phrases that lead to loving kindness. It's the intention to be loving and kind that does and that intention lives in the body. those are just some ways that I think it's completely an embodied experience. I love your answer, obviously, because I have a bias, which I can name. One thing that I notice with my clients and I obviously acknowledge meditation practice is not for everyone.

Ailey Jolie (31:48.301)

But something I have noticed in conversation with them or exploration with them is if not their lived experience, a belief that meditation is something that will take you up and out, kind of like that Kundalini awakening or like expanded consciousness and like all these beautiful things. And I'm curious to hear from you how you potentially kind of massage a different idea into those people.

or how you work with those experiences because I definitely know after my longer meditation experience where I just had like a lot of energy, I wasn't spontaneously crying. I was having spontaneous orgasms. I was like, this is not what I signed up for. This is not what I signed up for. This is not on the package. This is too much. And so it can be for a lot of people, this place where they go to go down and out.

how you kind of maybe structure the meditation different if there's framing to keep it as a more embodied experience instead of what my therapist would call it a disassociated expansive experience. Yeah, I would say that sometimes it's like a lot of people do look for this transcendent quality in meditation, but I liken it to

And then again, I just want to preface this with saying that I don't have as much experience in other meditation techniques or lineages than Vipassana. But I think sometimes when we are chasing that transcendent experience, it's like we're so ready to throw the body out or give up on the body. it's like, I liken it to like these billionaires who are looking for homes in outer space, but don't want to actually spend time on Earth kind of thing.

So it's a little bit like that. It's just like, but this is what we have. This is even if you have that transcendent experience with every expansion, there is also a contraction. That's just how nature works. And so you can have that, that beautifully expansive experience, but at some point there will be contraction. There will be coming back and then what? And so instead, can we learn how to live skillfully with this body here and now, because this is

Ailey Jolie (34:07.949)

this is the tool that we have. Yeah, sure, you can go for those transcendent experience, but to think that that's where all of our problems will be solved or something like that, like all of our relationships will be healed or all of our traumas. I think that is just like a misunderstanding of, or a misuse of the practice. And it could lead to maybe more, certainly more disappointment, maybe harm even, but I think we can be

totally free in this very body. What are some other misuses of the practice that you have observed or some common misunderstandings that you come across? Okay, I'm like, where to begin? But maybe just like a couple, a few things. just like, I think the biggest one, the most common one I see is that using practice as a spiritual bypass. That when we start learning about some of the qualities in

I think any spiritual lineage, but I'm thinking of say Buddhism in particular, like I mentioned loving kindness, for example, which is called the divine abode or it's one of the heart practices in Buddhism. And I think when people learn about loving kindness, they think that the goal is about being loving and kind all the time kind of thing, which is a beautiful aspiration. And I don't think it's totally possible, nor is it completely wise.

Because for example, it can start to negate actually what we're really feeling. And when we're not tuned into what we're really feeling, that becomes the invisible driver. And it can manifest as like reactions or sharpness or something like that. So for example, if we really wanted some sort of like promotion at work and we are one of two people up for the promotion and then the other person gets it.

If we're just quick to be like, yeah, may you be happy, may you be free and kind of just right away throw these loving kindness phrases their way, then we're denying maybe the hurt or disappointment that we are feeling. And it's not to say that one can only exist at a time. It could be both. It's like, I'm happy for you and I'm also sad for me. And so it's a little bit that like how we might be too quick to paper over anything that might feel difficult.

Ailey Jolie (36:28.771)

basically, because I think another misunderstanding is that mindfulness is just about feeling good. And I actually see a lot of people give up on meditation because what brought them to practice was they want some relief of their suffering, whether it's anxiety or insomnia or whatever it might be. And then when they come to meditation, it almost gets louder. And so people are just like, I have

a hard life, I'm not here to spend my free time focusing or hearing what is also hard or something like that. yeah, so I would say the bypass is definitely the most common one.

And I'd love to hear from you some of the misuse because oftentimes, specifically where I am in London, meditation or mindfulness is only brought into a conversation if it's a strategic improvement on a capitalist system or game. Like let's do corporate mindfulness or like corporate meditation so that we can like hit our ROI or like these types of things. And I'd love to hear from you how maybe having a goal.

hinders the practice or is it maybe not even the practice anymore when there is an optimization or goal attached? actually saw, I love that you brought in the corporate piece because it's almost like I heard at one point that a lot of corporations were like, this helps with absenteeism and morale. Let's do this so that people can do their work better without actually ever changing the dysfunctional or harmful culture.

And of course that's within a corporation, but then this exists on a systemic level as well. And I also heard how some army, I forget which one, were using mindfulness so that the snipers could be more concentrated or something. Something like really absurd. And I think the biggest difference is that at least with mindfulness as it respects the roots where it comes from, which is Buddhism, is that ethics is still very much part of

Ailey Jolie (38:31.477)

its approach. so ethics, for example, is one of the pillars in Buddhism. And so it can't really be separated from mindfulness, at least in an ethical way, or for it to be the spiritual practice, in my opinion. so, yeah, so just kind of like touching into what are the intentions. And the intention, at least from the Buddhist standpoint, is, it leading toward less suffering for myself and others now and in the future?

And so for example, in a corporation, this corporate mindfulness, it's like, it might be leading to less suffering for the workers in the moment, but not in a sustainable or long term way. And then I think also when there's like a hyper fixation on the outcome, as you kind of alluded to, or the goal, I think that's where it's just like, hold on, what is the intention again? Because

If there's this hyper fixation on a particular goal, think then that's where it starts getting slippery from the ethics piece, basically. You brought in there how meditation and mindfulness are spirituality kind of based practices. That wasn't your language. But I would love to hear more from you about that piece because I have noticed it. It was, it's been a gateway for I would say lots of my clients having that practice. And then it kind of

softens into more spirituality and then go psychology and then just kind of down the rabbit hole. I would love to hear what that journey has been like for you, if it kind of deepened your sense of spirituality, you've named Buddhism quite a few times, and also how you feel about mindfulness and meditation, specifically in the environment that I'm in, is very neutralized of any spirituality and maybe to hear from you what you feel like gets lost.

when we remove that kind of beautiful, ethereal quality to the practice. Yeah. I would say my path is not too different from a lot of people's, where it is our personal suffering that could bring us to want some relief and then find our way to mindfulness or meditation.

Ailey Jolie (40:49.633)

And then through sustained practice, I think we also begin to see our role in the suffering that we're experiencing. And then on the individual level, and then that starts kind of widening out what is our role to the amount of suffering that might be around us as well. And then through that widening of the circles, then we start not, we don't just see the impact of our actions and thoughts and words, but we also start touching into how we're all connected.

And so it's like this interdependence quality or this interconnection quality that I think is really beautiful. so, so that, you know, over the long run, that could be, say, maybe a map for some. But I think spirituality, you know, I'm curious if everyone who, who defines themselves as a Buddhist considers themselves spiritual. I'm not sure. But for me,

I, the way, how I think about spirituality is just kind of acknowledging that there's something bigger, that something that, and mysterious, that I will never understand, but I'm also not afraid of in a way. And so it's just like, I don't understand, for example, all of the conditions that lead to any one moment, but to recognize that I don't have control over all of that kind of thing. And so I would say that my Buddhist practice, my meditation practice,

As it started kind of widening out and into the realm of the interconnection, it was just even starting to acknowledge or recognize that there's something even bigger outside of that that I'll never understand that is kind of shepherding any given moment. And then I would also say that my meditation practice has really helped me tune into my intuition, which is not something we talk about in Buddhist meditation, but

my intuition and I think that's really come from connecting to my body over and over and over for decades has really helped me tune into this kind of courage that allows me to step into the unknown where it's like, I know this isn't right, like say a certain job and it's like, need, yeah, my livelihood is tied to it, but it doesn't feel right anymore. I don't know what could fill the gaps income wise, but I just know I need to follow this.

Ailey Jolie (43:14.955)

And so there is this kind of belief in spirit that I'll be taken care of or something like that. So that, that to me is linked to spirituality that in my opinion is a direct result of my meditation practice and my Buddhist studies.

Yeah, I love that you kind of did a gentle invitation in what you said of like opening the possibility of like how do we define spirituality? Like what does that mean for each of us? And whenever I use the word spirituality, what in my mind I'm referring to is that interconnectedness, is that like holding great mystery. And that is something that quite similarly, it's one of the reasons why

I love my meditation practice in its more condensed form on retreats. seem to maybe get a little too expanded, but in the short term it creates that type of expansion for me. And my last kind of question for you is for someone who is maybe new to the practice or is curious about having more of that interconnected feeling or has maybe heard some new things and is like, it doesn't have to be so rigid. You could go on retreat and it could be different. You can move your body. What are some beautiful ways that someone can start?

to explore this practice in maybe a more intentional and soft way? I love this question because it's really gonna be pointing to one of my favorite ways of practicing. So whether you're a beginner or advanced, I am just so excited or enthusiastic about ways we can bring life to practice and practice to life. And so it's really the two together because sometimes, well, practice to life, I think it's just,

When we, if we are able to have a formal meditation practice and we're able to be really still for a long period of time, we think that that's an achievement, but are you still an asshole to volunteers at your yoga studio or do you give flip the bird to somebody who stole your parking spot, et cetera? It's like, what does all of that matter? What you can do in your formal practice if you're not bringing it into the world kind of thing. And so in every moment,

Ailey Jolie (45:20.127)

However, to not try to aim for 100 % of the time, but to aim for short moments many times, to try to be mindful, to be present, to be compassionately curious. And then I find that there are a lot of apps that can help with that. So I'm biased because I contribute regularly to the Happier Meditation app. But one of the things that I love about contributing with them is that they're always so creative in how they can make the practices.

accessible in different ways to people. And they really bring in skilled and highly trained teachers onto the app. So it's really coming from a depth of wisdom and experience and skill. So I would suggest happier meditation as a more structured place to kind of explore different ways we can practice. And then the other part, the flip side is to bring life to practice. I think sometimes as experienced practitioners or longtime practitioners, we can

have our go-to, we know what our posture is, we know what our meditation is, say, mindful of the breath. But then life changes. The election results aren't what you wanted. You experience a loss, you're going through a transition. Then when we come to our meditation practice, if we try to force ourselves into that same old, same old practice, which is mindful of breath, for example, then we can start seeing like, wait, my practice isn't supporting me anymore, or it starts to feel like a chore.

or it just feels like no longer a refuge. And so what I really encourage students is like, tune into what is here now? What would be most supportive? So again, coming back to that question, what would serve my mindfulness? And then choose based on that. And so I might settle into a posture thinking I'm gonna do seated meditation, mindful of breath. But when I pause for a second, I actually feel that my lower back is aching and I'm a little bit sad and I don't know why.

I have winter blues a lot in Montreal. And so in those cases, I might just do a lying down practice that focuses on loving kindness and being kind to myself. And then that's my practice, but that's what I mean by bringing life to our practice instead of, I don't know, trying to force like a square peg into a round hole every day. I love both of those, life to practice and practice to life.

Ailey Jolie (47:45.251)

because it makes it so much more accessible in many ways and gets rid of the conceptions that many of us can have around what is meditation or mindfulness. It can really be clear seeing in whatever form that is that works for you in that moment and is what you need. I know that you have things that are upcoming. What do you have upcoming in the next three to six months or what is always available for the listener who wants more of you? Yeah, thank you.

So I do some multi-month Buddhist study programs. So that usually starts in September. I also am doing a mindfulness and Camino like pilgrimage and meditation retreat in September in Spain. I'm really excited about that one. I also have a membership community with, so it really started in the pandemic and it's just been such a sweet place for people who want to live.

with intention and purpose to come together. And then there's, touch in with folks twice a week and we have monthly meetings. And so that's a place that's kind of ongoing that I also offer. But then also just like check out my website, my name, donmaricio.com. And then hopefully, yeah, I'd love to see you and any others in a practice space.

Thank you so much for your time today and just all the ways that you have shown up for yourself to be such a consistent nervous system, well regulated, embodied, just all the yummy juicy things. I will always remember the moment when I saw you at somatic experiencing training and I was like, I want whatever that person has. That means I have to sit in silence. I will go do that. I love that. Thank you.

Ailey Jolie (49:45.709)

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Ailey Jolie (50:13.211)

you